MM211 Voltage & wire speed dials?

[Aeronca41]

• I would agree with Bigmike (post #15 in this topic)--nothing wrong with trying to learn more, and as an engineering nerd, I find it interesting, but I think the point is that the numbers, even with a digital display, are not necessarily what it's all about unless you are working to a modern weld spec that demands them. I learned to weld in 1960, have owned 10 or more welders, and until I bought the Dynasty 200 a few years ago, not one of of them had any meters to indicate voltage or current. Not a single one of the welds I made with any of them has ever come apart, to my knowledge. While the meters are a nice touch, do they add value? Is it worth the money? That is obviously a personal decision, but raising the price point on a welder just to add displays that in fact do little or nothing to improve the performance of the machine (in my opinion, at least) seems a losing proposition for someone building welders to sell. Until the world of digital welders came about (which make it relatively easy to add displays, since you already have the data as part of the internal control of the machine), it would appear the Millers, Lincolns, Hobarts, and ESABs of the world didn't consider it useful enough to entice people to pay more for their products. As with most things, It's usually about the money......
  
  It would not be hard to make up your own chart. I have a MM211 (the old transformer one, not the new inverter), and it would be a simple thing to connect a voltmeter to the two "polarity change" studs near the feed mechanism and simply measure/record the voltage. You could do the same with my old MM200 as the terminals are readily accessible, as they are in a Hobart Ironman 230, and probably many if not most other MIG machines. You could dedicate a cheap Harbor Freight meter to the task and just leave it connected, though it obviously wouldn't look "finished" as eecervantes logically asks.

[FusionKing]

"

If it was a paint gun, we wouldn't talk voltage and amperage. We'd talk air and product. Some where between a stream and a vapor cloud? A good painter understands distance and speed of travel once the gun is set to provide a pattern. How many gauges does he worry about? One, air pressure. That's the dial. A voltage dial maybe? After that it's product volume. How much wire to feed?




I last bought a box over a top simply because I didn't need portability. I was looking at the HD storage. Now you can get better on a stick? And as you mentioned your phone.

The paint gun analogy is spot on. Sadly I'm the only painter here. On the 350P the comparison is even closer, because you can tune the shape of the arc like a spray gun.

I went to the effort to find a small laptop with more power so it would be extra powerful. It does about everything a computer or a pad does. I take it with me on trips (in country) and when necessary I'll hotspot it off of my phone. Then when customers call, and I'm on a mountain in New Mexico, I can bid jobs, do estimates and invoices. Then My son can look them up online and print them off and collect the money.
My last job (actually last 3) was totally internet. We did several emails before we had any actual conversation. It feels kind of creepy to me, but I am getting over it.

If I were to design a shop machine....it would be VERY heavy. It would have as much copper as a AB/P 330. It would have all of the buzzers and bells of a Dynasty 400 and also do Mig. It would have knobs that would feel like analog. But.....It would also have a USB port that I could plug my phone into and use the program app I had installed. Then I could use the phone app to set all my parameters to the machine initially. These parameters could be chosen from more than one file. Ones from the MFG or from another source like say an independent source like maybe Indiana Oxygen or whomever. Plus my own previous settings that I had saved.
As long as we are using ELECTRICITY to weld.... the future is infinite.

[aametalmaster]

Maybe Miller should simply have marks around the knobs and leave the numbers off. Just a simple + & - and that's it.

I have ran so many welding machines over the last 40 years most just had scratch or pencil marks where to set as the 40 year old numbers were wore off. My MM185 is just numbered 1-6 and that suits me just fine...Bob

[ryanjones2150]

I'm on the same sheet of music with not using the phone book. Just tossed out the new one that showed up at my door a couple of weeks ago. I don't even go to my drill/tap chart anymore. In the time it takes for me to walk across the shop to my tool box, I can have the right drill for a certain tap already pulled up on my fancy schmancy phone. And I'm finding more and more customers who prefer to text over calling.

[Noel]

"

Maybe Miller should simply have marks around the knobs and leave the numbers off. Just a simple + & - and that's it."

I agree. Or we have to get people to think differently?

If it was a paint gun, we wouldn't talk voltage and amperage. We'd talk air and product. Some where between a stream and a vapor cloud? A good painter understands distance and speed of travel once the gun is set to provide a pattern. How many gauges does he worry about? One, air pressure. That's the dial. A voltage dial maybe? After that it's product volume. How much wire to feed?

Good on you for jumping in though, I may sound anti technology but really my complaint is people relying overly on it, and my perception in the anti social behaviors it fosters. Texting and driving comes to mind?

As a business owner having a smart phone, it's all at your finger tips. I get that and see the benefits. I'd have bought in deeper as well if I was still active in that way.
I last bought a box over a top simply because I didn't need portability. I was looking at the HD storage. Now you can get better on a stick? And as you mentioned your phone.
While I don't rely on much technology, it's a tool I'm comfortable with. I'll probably jump ship to a phone as a result soon enough, but things are at my finger tips presently and affordable to manage for the expense and money being spent.

But more related to the question of the knobs, WPS's were mentioned. I have two buddies, one calibrates welding machines, the other takes these numbers written down and types them in a formatted excel spread sheet for recording, delivering a paper copy back. Everybody makes a bit of money. Some more, some less. In an off handed way, if he, the original complainant is following along, he might take from that story the idea that knowing less, doesn't equate to more.

You mentioned the business and I thought I'd check things out. I can see how social media and it's platform reaches customers for you. Well done on the presentation.

[FusionKing]

They're doing it now. Wireless remotes, data tracking in real time, infinite digital controls.
It's out there.
As Ryan mentioned, it happens on us. It's done so slowly this integration, we fail to recognize it as it filters into our daily lives and how it's changing us as it does, when it does, not always for the better, but at times with some good coming from it.

On the bright side, one day your helmet will have a camera built in it and a voice from the office across the country will say, slow down, speed up, pause longer on the sides. Drone technologies.
When that day filters down, and it will, someone one will have found a way to make money, and some one else will say I'll spend money on it.

I see possibilities, but I also see the disconnect from those that do, and those that sell something. Marketing and promotion.

Welding simulators should actually simulate real welding not just what a software designer thinks it should look like? What a bill of goods? It's not exactly a 747 your trying to fly is it?
Watch the Tom Hanks movie about the pilot landing on the Hudson river.
Like a test you take over and over till you get a passing grade, if the simulator made things smoky, sparky, in an uncomfortable position, maybe? But they don't. Cool stuff, but of limited value for the money.

Truth be told, if someone made the statement we have a bunch of money destined for new technology, innovations to learning, which they won't spend on anything else but...guess what they buy?
What a waste of money. Yours and mine because it's tax dollars being spent.

As the song goes, "somethings wrong with the world today" ?

Smart phones? I don't own one. I have a land line. One is a rotary dial, the other a cordless with a push button key pad. I get three house away and it's no signal. I'm in the bar I'm going to drink, talk and communicate, I won't be checking my phone. But if someone really wanted to know who won the world series in 63, guess it could come in handy?

I remember when cordless portable phones came out they were call cell phones? So, how come my computer is still a computer and his phone is now smart? Misdirection to sell a product seemingly? Get you hooked thinking you can't be smart without one.
Same goes for welding education and training to just set the dials.

Now we have smart phones, smart TV's, smart cars... we are just smarter in general it seems as a result of smart technology?

Admittedly I don't have cable TV, but I do pay for a internet connection and a landline.

With my computer hooked to a big screen, key board on the coffee table, I start the day like clock work by turning it on and discovering what I missed.
When I pull myself away, m

y cordless is carried around the house, yard, garage, waiting for a ring... so yes, in a strange way, I'm also hooked to the technology addiction. Just less twitching and scratching when I don't get my fix.

But as I keep saying, it's no substitute for a good education. That pilot proved it landing the plane on the river.

Yea.....I agree on all points...….although…..
I use my smart phone to increase my business. In fact at the moment I type this, I have one of the latest and greatest. It is better than my computer that I'm using right now. It has 512 gigs of memory and 8 gigs of ram. The computer is 500 and 5 of ram. Does that mean I need a new computer?
I have begun to quit using the phone book or any other type of advertising other than social media. Can't seem to stop that snowball.
I'll do a job for one ole boy and then he'll show his neighbor my Facebook page and then he calls. It keeps us months backlogged.
Maybe Miller should simply have marks around the knobs and leave the numbers off. Just a simple + & - and that's it.
I've always made it an art project instead of a research project. I hated art class if the teacher didn't approach it from an artist's perspective.
Gotta have that freedom with the blank canvass. Gotta learn to jump in and wing it !!!!!

[Noel]

They're doing it now. Wireless remotes, data tracking in real time, infinite digital controls.
It's out there.
As Ryan mentioned, it happens on us. It's done so slowly this integration, we fail to recognize it as it filters into our daily lives and how it's changing us as it does, when it does, not always for the better, but at times with some good coming from it.

On the bright side, one day your helmet will have a camera built in it and a voice from the office across the country will say, slow down, speed up, pause longer on the sides. Drone technologies.
When that day filters down, and it will, someone one will have found a way to make money, and some one else will say I'll spend money on it.

I see possibilities, but I also see the disconnect from those that do, and those that sell something. Marketing and promotion.

Welding simulators should actually simulate real welding not just what a software designer thinks it should look like? What a bill of goods? It's not exactly a 747 your trying to fly is it?
Watch the Tom Hanks movie about the pilot landing on the Hudson river.
Like a test you take over and over till you get a passing grade, if the simulator made things smoky, sparky, in an uncomfortable position, maybe? But they don't. Cool stuff, but of limited value for the money.

Truth be told, if someone made the statement we have a bunch of money destined for new technology, innovations to learning, which they won't spend on anything else but...guess what they buy?
What a waste of money. Yours and mine because it's tax dollars being spent.

As the song goes, "somethings wrong with the world today" ?

Smart phones? I don't own one. I have a land line. One is a rotary dial, the other a cordless with a push button key pad. I get three house away and it's no signal. I'm in the bar I'm going to drink, talk and communicate, I won't be checking my phone. But if someone really wanted to know who won the world series in 63, guess it could come in handy?

I remember when cordless portable phones came out they were call cell phones? So, how come my computer is still a computer and his phone is now smart? Misdirection to sell a product seemingly? Get you hooked thinking you can't be smart without one.
Same goes for welding education and training to just set the dials.

Now we have smart phones, smart TV's, smart cars... we are just smarter in general it seems as a result of smart technology?

Admittedly I don't have cable TV, but I do pay for a internet connection and a landline.

With my computer hooked to a big screen, key board on the coffee table, I start the day like clock work by turning it on and discovering what I missed.
When I pull myself away, m

y cordless is carried around the house, yard, garage, waiting for a ring... so yes, in a strange way, I'm also hooked to the technology addiction. Just less twitching and scratching when I don't get my fix.

But as I keep saying, it's no substitute for a good education. That pilot proved it landing the plane on the river.

[ryanjones2150]

A few months ago, at a rec hockey tournament, me and the team went out for some grub and a few beers after the game. Me and the oldest guy on the team (I'm the second oldest) we're sitting across from each other just shoot the poop. I looked to my left and right...every other guy on the team, with the exception of us two, had their noses buried in their little phones. At the bar. You know, the place where human interaction is supposed to take place. Things aren't changing, that's been done and happened on us. Won't be long and you will be able to use your phone to set up a welder, and that might be the only way to make it work.

[Ltbadd]

and his eye phone isn't telling him much. I have seen guys come in for weld tests and scroll thru their phones looking for info to help them on 50 year old machines and they don't have a clue. So yes todays world needs them. Gotta run to work now everyone have a great day...Bob

That's funny, it's a new world, see so many employees at break/lunch and their heads rarely lookup from the enticing screen

[aametalmaster]

In the New Generation World the meters are needed. The shops have WPS sheets hanging on the wall telling you where to set your machine for different parts. They were made up with engineers whom some have never struck an arc but you have to follow them. (been there). 2nd you have kids coming out of vocational schools that take welding tests on weld simulators with all of the parameters to set up that part for a state test in a notebook hanging on the simulator (seen it) . Ms. school superintendent sitting 14 doors down doesn't give a rats butt if little johnny can really weld as his computer generated welding simulator says he can and he passes the class. Little johnny is now a certified welder ready for the real world. Then in 3 weeks little johnny gets a job in the big shop and doesn't have a clue as the job he was stuck on the meter is broke (seen that too) and his eye phone isn't telling him much. I have seen guys come in for weld tests and scroll thru their phones looking for info to help them on 50 year old machines and they don't have a clue. So yes todays world needs them. Gotta run to work now everyone have a great day...Bob

[Noel]

Well...

Isn't this a case of digging up the dead scrolls? That was a lot too review.

jbs4radio, you've been doing some home work. I couldn't enlarge it to see closely, but it looked crafty? Must have taken some effort? I did read your picture's explanation so I caught the gist.. Well done. I'm giving you extra points.

They say If your digging a grave it's best to use a shovel. Well, with a long handled spade, I cherry picked a line and I'm going to run with it.

"Voltage, wire speed and/or amperage settings serve no real purpose to getting a good weld?"

I didn't add the question mark, and I'm gonna say no.
They serve a purpose, but is it a real purpose to getting a good weld? IMO no.

The gas...I think It serves a real purpose. Without it, things falls apart.
The voltage and WFS are variables, that depending on the skill of the operator, can make the day or make a mess, even when the dials are dialed in?
But it starts with the gas. Gas mixtures, coverage, that has the greatest effect on what you can accomplish with real purpose.

Because, a good weld is subjective and the conversation revolved around readings of voltage and WFS (amperage) to make a good weld, set parameters for a good weld, and the fact I read all those responses, I'm going to toss out some things I didn't see mentioned, or mentioned directly, and some I'll mimic that are worth repeating.

Why they don't have meters, and why they do, my opinions, and those previously mentioned by others.

Why they don't?

- Because a knowledgeable welder knows what the requirements are to achieve a short circuit, globular, or spray transfer mode. He understands how the shielding gas affects the occurrences of transfer, and sets voltage and WFS secondary to it's offered range of capabilities.

- Because these power sources offer welding capabilities on thicker materials, a variety of material types with greater process adaptability then a 140 or 185 amp rating, while now capable of performing these modes of metal transfer, it's done still with known limits to such capabilities and duration when doing so.
Duty cycle limits and volt/amp out put characteristics stand out. Most don't grasp that who buy them, and then ask why?

- Because they are marketed to make welding easier, power source setting charts and auto set functions cover these basic operational ranges and it's assumed the operator will figure out how to adjust and compensate for the variables of fabrication.

- Because someone who wants to weld bigger and greater things with less knowledge and a bigger budget thinks, if I can do this with 90 amps then 140 must be better. And if 140 is better, then 185 has to be the bomb. But if a 185 is the bomb and for a few bucks more he can buy a 210 which does everything and more with all that digital display to make it easy technology coming in $500 cheaper then a Bertha...with meters, what's he going buy after being sold those virtues not knowing more or better?

- Because with an easy to follow instruction manual, a cross referencing chart, built in push button make it easy with smarter then you selection setting technology, who really needs digital display meters? But like guys who scratch their sweet spot to a dial, if you want to remember 17.5volts and 175ipm as the thing to remember, convert away?

Why they didn't use display meters?
I'm in agreement with the previous posters one who said, they don't have to, It's not required. Something like that?
I'm sure however that if you can source a display, read a schematic of an electrical drawing, how hard could it be to wire something into place if you can find the space to mount it?
Really...It's not that complicated or old school in approach to not set to a displayed value.

If it was, they'd make the owners manual thicker?


When they do add display to show voltage, WFS/ amperage conversion on the power source or feeder...

- It's because numbers offer a sense of affirmation. Seemingly a lot of people need that?

- It's because when someone in a different tax bracket needs accountability and a place to lay blame when things go wrong, it always comes down to numbers.

- Because someone in a different job, different tax bracket, can say with a degree of certainty, here's the WPS recipe, these numbers say stir this much and bake at this temperature, with these ingredients you'll have a cake. Not a flapjack, but a cake.

- Because it appears measurable to yet another guy who insures he's getting good cake.

- It's because that crowd wants to walk around looking at steady numbers not a bright arc.

Having said all that...good to see some of you still around. Old as this post is, it's been viewed a zillion times, but what, 17 responders?
It seems to have out lasted some of those who replied in 2012?

My fresh perspective.

Some where written in the old testament was a formula for calculating heat required and equating amperage to electrode diameter. Something about an amp for every thousands of an inch? That ring a bell?
Buddy made a chart and a fine chart it is I'm sure. But to what purpose or necessity it serves is what is called into question?

Well, before you go and get your panties in a knot, let me explain further as I can see this is an issue that divided the ranks of replies to the original posting?

Long before wire feed processes there was stick welding.
When it came to how deep you could penetrate through one side, it was 1/8" with a 1/8" diameter E6010 electrode.

DCRP.
Why do you think SMAW root lands never exceed 1/8"? Do you think, maybe?

So, a welder with proper technique, in a square groove preparation, could penetrate 1/8" with a E6010, 125 amps.... cellulose coated, not lime/basic, not rutile or iron power...cellulose coated.
Those other coating types would afford less penetration yet with more amperage applied. Go figure?

Now...all of a sudden, if the metal is so many thousands thick you need this many amps? That's the problem. It's that which has people trying to convert WFS to amperage because of material thickness? By that reasoning, you couldn't weld 1/2" plate with that machine and we know you could?
I shake my head? Poor understand comes from poor explanation and poor education. A lack of knowledge.

Where did that come from? Last I recall, the reference was to how much current the wire diameter could support before it started acting badly?
So I ask, why are root lands for GMAW never exceeding 1/16"? Because the process limits achievable penetrations depth.
You can't, unlike SMAW, expect to just turn the heat up and penetrate?

Trying to convert WFS to amperage? I'm not seeing it as helpful, in any way, shape or form?
What I can see is someone instructing and say set this dial to this, that dial to that and go run beads. And someone now has to figure out what this is and that was because without those numbers, markers if you will, they're lost?

Now the argument is, spray transfer. Why you bought the machine in the first place right? Well before you start with the I told you so, while spray transfer does with added voltage, higher WFS, strip droplets faster with a slight increase in penetration depths, thank you argon, it's really metal deposition rates that rise as a result of using a spray transfer.

So...even on a flat square groove preparation butt joint with a spray transfer, or a fillet weld how deep do you think your going to penetrate? Unless you open the gap, vee out deeper prep, you will see a penetration increase, but certainly not 1/8" or close.
The process limits as mentioned, penetration, with faster filling and increased travel speeds.

So what's my point?
The point is, it's my opinion that if you think a digital read out is going to make you a better welder your mistaken. Going through that conversion effort as previously mentioned, is no substitute for knowledge or it's application when welding.
But someone watching you work, looking at the numbers, he's going to have something to see.

And if your instructing this stuff, show up early for a change, tape over the face of the displays, turn the dials to zero. You'll quickly discover who understands what's going on and who needs your help.

Just saying...my opinion and which side of the discussion I would have stood.

[jbs4radio]

Just expanding my understanding of the dials.

[Meltedmetal]

Buy a cheap VOM meter epoxy it to a convenient spot on your machine and wire it across your stinger cable and work cable. Voila, digital readout, no?
Meltedmetal

[ericher69]

MM211 Voltage & wire speed dials?

Check ebay

Just do a search for voltmeter.

http://shop.mobileweb.ebay.com/searchresults;PdsSession=d0813edd13a0a5aa66663d06f fe899e4?kw=Volt+meter&cmd=SREF&mfs=SBCLK&acimp=0&i sNewKw=true

[Matrix]

Then buy a machine that has a display.