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Adding a 230v outlet for a Diversion 180

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  • Sberry
    replied
    The stuff isn't any good if it takes an hour to get it out to make a tack, well worth it for a lot of guys to tailor a recept or 2 if they will really be using the equipment. Thats kind of my interest in these threads, its about the utilities, does the thing work WHEN and WHERE I want it to. Having to green acres cords and hoses just adds one more step when things are already hard enough and taxing ambition. Migs have greatly added to ease of so many jobs.
    Battery tools have been a Godsend too. Made life so much easier when it reduced the need to drag a cord around. People often think puter when they think hi tech but battery's and power drive fasteners have been revolutionary.

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  • Sberry
    replied
    Sberry,
    The 6/3 cords I use are all, more or less, extension cords that lay in floor guides (to protect them from hot metal, sharp edges, etc). They allow me to keep most of my smaller equipment fairly mobile without needing to run new outlets every time I move things around. If a circuit is over 50A, I'll run a hard wired circuit via conduit, using heavier-gage single strands, directly to where that machine is mounted.
    Yes, that sounds great. Usually heavy machines have a home, another good idea.
    I got some 10 I made up, a couple 25's and one about 70 or so, back in the day in older shop I kept the 70 on a cart all the time with a 175 mig, I wasn't as convenient as I am now and moved around more. Had AC/DC buzzer with couple racks of lead, one went outdoor, stinger to grounded bench and another set reached indoor, buzzer sat near an electric service, never moved. I still basically have it that way today, some of the machines all hooked to same ground point, benches grounded, welding booth grounded, stinger there, stinger with lead reaches out on to the floor or out the door, use same ground for plasma.
    I used to have a couple torch setups, 100 ft of hose to a station, one on LP and the other acetylene but plasma has replaced a lot of that need for cutting so went back to one gas on a cart.
    There are occasional metal fab jobs but basically maintenance type work anymore, convenience is everything. Machine stationed at work bench, flip switch, weld, etc and usually takes longer to find my helmet or glasses than to do most work.
    Many of my competitors view repair and welding etc as a last resort but if I can fab or fix my way out of a problem I am all over it especially if its a permanent solution or speeds production. I am all for buying when the time is right and it makes sense and you cant depreciate ones own labor but you can replace a lot of payments. Old equipment has times it can be challenging but doesn't mean it cant function right especially when much of the use is rather sporadic. Usually when I get something fixed up I can keep it that way a long time.
    I find I can work my way around many complicated problems as rare as they are but the daily grind I am well tooled for, battery tools, plumbed in hot hi pressure washer, air tools, gobs of hand stuff, hoist, etc. .
    Last edited by Sberry; 10-14-2011, 04:10 PM.

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  • Bistineau
    replied
    Originally posted by Broccoli1 View Post
    I mean sheite, might as well put in a
    125amp CB, Disconect and be all set for a Synch 300
    That's what I'm talking about, be ready for any future machine with more power requirements.

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  • TX-D
    replied
    RAyJ, thank you for pointing that out. You are correct and I don't know how that sentence came out so twisted.

    Sberry,
    The 6/3 cords I use are all, more or less, extension cords that lay in floor guides (to protect them from hot metal, sharp edges, etc). They allow me to keep most of my smaller equipment fairly mobile without needing to run new outlets every time I move things around. If a circuit is over 50A, I'll run a hard wired circuit via conduit, using heavier-gauge single strands, directly to where that machine is mounted.
    Last edited by TX-D; 10-14-2011, 12:21 PM.

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  • Sberry
    replied
    8 is great, it will work for any factory (50) cord supplied machine and I like it better than 6 just cause its easier to bend around in a box, its way beyond whats needed for a Diversion but won't hurt a thing.

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  • ArcFabric8ter
    replied
    I just bought a diversion 180 and am doing the same thing for the garage. My father in law is an electrician so he's been teaching me how it works and how to make various custom extension cords etc. He says that from my breaker its 12G for all electricity in my house. We are going to use 8G for the 230v plug, along with 8G for extension cords. Good luck, have some fun
    -Dave

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  • Sberry
    replied
    As I understand it, the circuit breaker is there to prevent the wire between the breaker and the outlet from over-heating and causing a fire.
    In general this is true,,, especially with general use circuits where there is multiple outlets on the same circuit, so the housewife cant put several heaters on one line. For equipment that runs continuous this is also true but some types of loads its the connected load that protects the wire. Think of a light fixture, 16 wire connected to a 20A circuit, limited by the size lamp the fixture will accept. I found a lamp cord in wall from a switch a while back, been there 50 yrs, wasn't code legal then or now but the installer probably understood a light was never going to overload the wire.
    Breakers in some equipment circuits are there primarily for short circuit interruption, any wire connected to a circuit need to be heavy enough to deliver adequate fault current to trip the breaker. 12 for up to 50, 8 for 100, depending on conductor size. Some circuits allow number 8 conductors to 100A also, each machine or connected load is different.
    Also doesnt need a disconnect as this is cord and plug.
    Last edited by Sberry; 10-14-2011, 07:55 AM.

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  • Sberry
    replied
    In my shop, I use 6/3 SO cable (rated 55 amps) for service lines,
    Are these free or in a wall, cords are a no-no in a wall. You are right about overloads though, never have that issue unless you hard wired a large machine to it, anything that comes with cord wont overload it.

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  • Sberry
    replied
    but I'd be a little surprised if it allows you to go as high as 50 amps on 10ga wire, even for a circuit dedicated to the welder.
    Allows for 50A on a 12 wire,, single circuit in pipe though. Cord or cable needs to ne a 10 or better. They been doing this as long as codes and buzz boxes been around. For this machine a 10 would be good to well over a hundred feet.

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  • RAyJ
    replied
    TX-D,

    I think you meant breaker rating should never exceed wire rating. The wire rating will come from the NEC with all applicable derates and conditions depending on the purpose ie welding. You can always put a low rated breaker on higher rated wire provided the wire actually fits into the breaker.

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  • TX-D
    replied
    A 120ish amp circuit breaker with 10 gauge wire? You get a short in that line near the plug and the whole thing'll go poof before the breaker even thinks of tripping. For a 120ish amp circuit breaker, you'd want to have atleast 1 gauge wire running to the outlet...which is over kill unless your running some serious equipment. IMO, it sounds like your electrician doesn't know what he's doing...or he has a surplus of 120 amp breakers.

    Wire capacity should never exceed breaker trip rating. If you need a breaker that can handle a short, high amperage impulse, use a slow blow breaker that's rated at the max wire capacity.

    I'm surprised that no one's asked the length of the circuit that you're wanting. Not sure how Miller machines handle voltage drop, but if your planning a circuit over 30 feet or so, you may want to step up your wire size to minimize it.

    In my shop, I use 6/3 SO cable (rated 55 amps) for service lines, protected by 50 amp breakers. If I need a smaller breaker size on location, I'll just add a distribution enclosure with smaller breakers as needed near the end of the run. Never had a problem with voltage drop or overloading the lines.

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  • Kevin Meier
    replied
    As I understand it, the circuit breaker is there to prevent the wire between the breaker and the outlet from over-heating and causing a fire. It isn't there to protect your welder, the over-heat function of your welder is for that.

    The National Electric Code specifies the maximum breaker size that is appropriate for a given size of wire. Normally 10ga wire shouldn't be used with a breaker larger than 30 amps, but the code allows for larger breakers on circuits that are dedicated to welders. I don't have a copy of the code, but I'd be a little surprised if it allows you to go as high as 50 amps on 10ga wire, even for a circuit dedicated to the welder.

    What's the problem in ignore the code? The electrical inspector won't pass work that doesn't follow code. If you don't get it inspected, and it causes a fire, then you will probably have trouble getting the insurance company to help out.

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  • techguy
    replied
    Thanks for the feedback, again. And yes Broccol1, I have an electrician. He was going to use 10g wire, a 120'ish amp breaker, and a disconnect box. He just asked if I had a preference on the setup, and I said, "Nope -- I don't know jack about wiring A/C, but I'll ask online."

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  • Sberry
    replied
    10/50 will feed pretty much any machine that comes with a 50A factory cord, some of the 250 class migs actually call for an 8 but you got to be a screaming demon with a setup not usually found in home shops (more than can be output with 035 and C25). The Diversion definitely should not be connected on circuit breaker larger than 50.
    6 ga wire isn't going to hurt anything thats for sure but usually if a guy is adding a specialty machine that needs it he is willing to wire a special circuit. I add a home outlet/circuit for each machine. I spend a couple grand on a unit I am not gonna Green Acres a recept, want it switch and play. As the Broc man said for now, 10 wire and a 30A breaker is a tailor made circuit for it, great for up to 210 class mig also and maybe a IM230 class with breaker change to 40 if needed.

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  • Broccoli1
    replied
    Originally posted by Bistineau View Post
    Can't really go wrong with going with 6Ga wire if your planning on staying in this shop a long time. It's easier to put in now than to remove smaller wire later and replace with 6 in case you upgrade to a larger capacity machine in the future. All you'll need to do then is change receptacles and breaker to increase capacity of the circuit. You never know if you may decide the extra power will be needed later.
    He said "bigger than a 50 amp CB", he didn't say 6g wire 50amp CB and a 6-50r

    why would he jump over a 50amp CB?? I mean sheite, might as well put in a
    125amp CB, Disconect and be all set for a Synch 300
    Last edited by Broccoli1; 10-13-2011, 07:03 PM.

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