WP-17 torch problem

[H80N]

I had a bottle of Argon go bad "suddenly". The aluminum beads had been nice and shiny, until the bottle pressure dropped to about 500 psi. Then, evidence of bad gas/contamination started to affect the appearance of the beads. After checking all of the suspected culprits for leaks, etc., I took the bottle back to the LWS and exchanged it for a new one. Problem solved (at least for a little while - time will tell). The clerk told me he had never seen anything like it.
.

That "Sudden" go bad .... would be a brand new phenomena in my world.. been tigging since about 1968 and never seen such a thing... but I guess anything is possible...

have had contaminated or mislabeled bottles in the past... but that became evident from the get-go.... no delay...

but glad that the problem is resolved... whatever the cause..................

[Goodhand]

I had a bottle of Argon go bad "suddenly". The aluminum beads had been nice and shiny, until the bottle pressure dropped to about 500 psi. Then, evidence of bad gas/contamination started to affect the appearance of the beads. After checking all of the suspected culprits for leaks, etc., I took the bottle back to the LWS and exchanged it for a new one. Problem solved (at least for a little while - time will tell). The clerk told me he had never seen anything like it.

When I told my son about having the above experience, he told me that the contaminated bottle probably had water left in it, following hydrostatic testing. He explained that while the Argon was at higher pressure, it kept the water in a liquid state at the bottom of the bottle. Then, when the pressure dropped to a point where the water became gaseous, it resulted in contaminating the Argon. Until someone can come up with a better explanation, I'll have to accept my son's theory.

The next time I get a bad bottle of gas, we'll test it with a gas spectrometer to find out exactly what is mixed with the Argon.

[shovelon]

You may have gotten a mislabeled MIG gas mix.... which would be bad news ... not worked at all well in Tigging

But after rereading the whole thread.... NONE of this makes sense.... the problem would have shown up immediately as soon as you connected and used the bad bottle of gas.....

I agree, I have never had a bottle of gas just suddenly go bad.

Whatever the case it runs good now.

[H80N]

You may have gotten a mislabeled MIG gas mix.... which would be bad news ... not worked at all well in Tigging

But after rereading the whole thread.... NONE of this makes sense.... the problem would have shown up immediately as soon as you connected and used the bad bottle of gas.....

[chewinggum]

Helium and Argon are both inert gases and pure. They would not produce contamination by themselves or mixed together.

CG

[dupalex32]

Hey Guys,

Sorry it took so long... I finally found the problem about 2 weeks ago, (then I got really busy working) But the issue was simply that I got 2 bad tank of gas in a row. After spending way to much money changing everything that could possibly be changed, a friend of a friend welder came buy my place and took my bottle of gas to his work, and sure enough it was crap... I had a mixed helium/argon, which I never had problem with before, but then I guess they had problem with their mix or something.. Now using straight argon only and works like a charm. Thanks all for your help,

Alex

[popspipes]

It would be so much easier if we could see the setup, fixing something in the dark is tough to do.
I dont know if a cracked cup was mentioned but that will cause a similar problem as well, also a cracked back cap.

I have also had a bad ground cause big problems as well especially on aluminum.

Keep us posted as I am very interested to see what the service shop findings are.

[ASKANDY]

The hall device is a current sensor and has nothing to do with the gas circuit. It measures the current output and tells the pcb what amperage you are welding at.
If you had some output power problems where the machine was going wide open or down to minimum output with no control, then I'd say you have a hall device issue.

I would have them check the gas valve for cracks and the lines inside the machine.

One other thing to check is the O-ring inside the twist lock connector where the torch connects. Make sure it's in good shape and not broke or missing.

Good luck.
Andy

[shovelon]

A crushed collet will close off the flow to your collet body or gas lense. The gas will then leak out and around the o ring on you backcap.

I would recommend everybody spend $28 and buy a portable flowmeter to test the gas flow coming out of your torch. This would have confirmed you have a gas flow issue or not.

A simple test is to set gas flow at tank flowmeter, then confirm at cup on torch. I have found a few very interesting things.

The link is http://www.netwelding.com/prod02.htm

[dupalex32]

So far I tried most of you guy's idea (thanks) with no luck. I have replaced my tank with a new one, new regulator, Brand new torch, consumable and hose. It doesn't leave much potential source of contamination or leak... Especially keeping in mind that my setup on the welder (amperage, dcen, pre and post flow and everything in that matter) was working perfectly 30 second before. All I did is taking my tungsten out and grind it, and put it back in. Then nothing ever worked again. And yes, I did tried a different tungsten as well. One thing I didn't do is to check that little screen that cruiser was talking about, but I never used teflon tape. Andy, yes the welder has weld aluminum fine in the past. I was welding with 15chf, after it stopped working I tried everything between 5 and 30... I completely agree that it looks like a gas issue, but from were??? Anyways, after all that, my Air Liquide guy I deal with talked to a miller service tech that said that the hal device might be out of wack. My welder is now sitting in a miller service/repair shop here in Saskatoon. Really hoping he finds the problem, whether the welder is not working properly or I am a plain and simple dumbass!

[ASKANDY]

Unless you have a bad or cracked gas valve, bad internal gas hose or the pcb is not turning on the valve, the welder really can't produce that type of contamination. It only provides the current, ac or dc to do the welding.
Your situation still looks like some sort of gas issue.
If your gas cup is contaminated, it too will draw that into the weld.
If you disconnect the torch, you should be able to blow through the torch.
If you can't, take the torch cup, collet and collet body out of the torch and try again. I've seen some aftermarket consumables when screwed in all the way, block the gas supply from the torch.
If possible, try to get your gas supplier to let you try some UHP Argon.
That would rule out the gas bottle.

What flow rate are you using?
What voltage are you on and have you verified that the power is getting up to and through the power switch?
Has the welder ever welded Aluminum good in the past?

Hope this helps.
Andy

[popspipes]

Take your torch apart and make sure all the parts are in good shape (may have arced over internally and damaged the internals so that you have a gas leak inside the torch.
The collet body should be asembled first, make sure its tight in the torch body, then insert the collet, screw on the back cap loosely then insert the tungsten and tighten the back cap.

I have seen the collet body loosen up and no matter how tight the back cap is it wont tighten up on the collet, and if used when assembled loosely it can arc inside and trash the torch.

[raferguson]

You should be able to feel the gas coming out of the torch, just hold it away from any metal, an inch or so from your skin. To avoid shocks, don't have your body touching the work.

If you think about how regulators work, it is normal to have extra gas flow when you first turn it on. The gas goes from the tank to the regulator, through a small orifice built into the regulator, and then into the hose to the welder. When there is no gas flow, the pressure builds up in that hose, while when there is gas flow, the orifice reduces the pressure in the hose.

You could perhaps put a balloon over the tig torch tip and see how much gas comes out in a few seconds. That might help you see what is happening, you could perhaps even estimate the rate of gas flow.

If you use soapy water (again watch for shocks), you might be able to find any leaks in the torch, cable, etc.

I have no idea why it drained the tank one day and not another, unless the gas valve in the welder had a bit of dirt in it keeping it from closing all the way.

As always, consider having a welding friend stop by and take a look at the set up, they might see something that you had not noticed. You could also take your torch back to the dealer, talk to a different salesman, see if the salesman sees anything wrong.

Richard

[cruizer]

Now at the back of the welder where the gas hose attaches, is a screen to prevent debis (mostly teflon tape) from going through. Might want to check the condition of that, before you think on what further problems there could be.

[dupalex32]

I just installed a new torch and it still does the same, I actually found a thread with someone that has the exact same problem as me (a long time ago) posted by ttype. I now believe the prooblem is from the welder itseflf