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  • Rig Hand
    replied
    Originally posted by Cornerstone View Post
    I don't know about that righand, typically I'll weld each joint,either a rollout or a position weld, like my job tomorrow depends on it. Don't care to see ribbons flapping about on one that I let my standards go a little bit just to see what I can get away with.

    Buts that just the thing of it, you're cranking out the inches all day long and can get a little complacent now and then and boom!, there's a repair ribbon to help you start your day.
    I'm not saying that you need to leave any defects in your welds, I'm saying there is a lot of stuff that takes care of itself but in order to find that balance you have to have a little faith. You can grind your beads perfectly clean and hot pass them and have no slag lines on the film. You can also not grind as much, run a little hotter and stand on it a little longer and still not have any slag lines on film. See what I'm getting at. I try and make every weld clean as a whistle, but in a bind I know what will and won't fly.

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  • jelias
    replied
    I worked with a guy like that as well. He worked with the boiler makers for quite a few years. But he could weld faster and nicer than anyone i have ever came across. It never seemed like he was rushing and never had his machine cranked way up. He always told me just keep your hood down and weld. Might have been the best advice anyone ever gave me. But have never meant anyone like him again.

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  • Sberry
    replied
    One of the best welders I ever ran across I think was a guy, maybe late 20's from Jamaica, he has worked 3 or 4 years a shipyard before he joined Ironworker's. The natural ease he had was as good as anyone I can recall. Met a lot that were as good and super proficient but his nature was noticeably different.

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  • Sberry
    replied
    One time I was working in a job shop, was a steel place and we get some job comes in for alum. The boss asks me to do it, I said,,, sheet,,, but Stanley over there told me he tig it every day for 3 yrs in a shipyard. Well, Stanley as it turns out doesn't know much about "that" machine as its a different color or sumthin, say no more, I find all the stuff, rig it up, strike an arc, yup, put Stanley who was by the way the "right" man for this job in this company, I did the fixtures and he is a blaze, don't know a frickin thing about it but that one thing, perfect every time. As I recall they kept that job a while,,, reason it had come by I believe was the last outfit had some rookie do it and it was some kind of showy fixture.
    I pretty much had to go every morning and turn the machine on but the guy could weld them.
    Last edited by Sberry; 09-24-2011, 04:20 PM.

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  • Sberry
    replied
    For me tig alum is a lot like that, do it so occasionally, know the basics but got to really think,,, whats wrong, some guys do it regular just come flying by. I am sweating bullets and they look like old lady knitting the 100th sweater.

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  • Sberry
    replied
    Like rig hand said don't change everything all at once. Welding 20 joints that all fail is way worse than welding 10 that pass. But if you make small changes along the way you can look at the outcomes and keep making changes until you have it perfected.
    Thats a really good clear statement. Thats part of the learning curve, obviously the man has the skill to do passable work sometimes it takes a while to get proficient. A while back I practice something for 4 days, first couple was drag azz, about the 4th day it comes back. Some skill sets take up to a couple years to get proficient if one has the basic talent.
    On small stuff with small electrodes I think it can be fussy, arc length and even couple amps can be a factor, changing more rods in difficult spots. In my world its easy to make an acceptable weld, I would have to work like a dog to make a great one. It takes a certain amount of practice after you "learn" the technique to put all the parameters on auto pilot.

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  • Sberry
    replied
    Perfect example,, last hour am going to tape up a grill for a Caddy, my experience says,,, get a appliance white and paint all the semi hidden stuff before assembly, easy trick, big time saver. I walk out there and try to tape this simple thing I was a good finish on. After thinking about this thread a minute I had enough, walk back out, move part into good light, get pair of glasses and zip, 30 seconds, looked better, hid half of it where it cant be seen.
    No real skill set fundamentally changed, at some level, say a Nascar driver, who is still an equipment operator,,, the difference between Johnson and Gorden minor, between average driver a lot and between them and 90 yr old Grandma that never liked to drive anyway. Relate this to welders somewhat, not the fame to push the minor differences among the top to the same levels, say finatially, but the skill levels are probably the same.
    One time a guy says,,, you are really good at that. I said,,, I ain't no "better" than you are, you just got here, I been doing it for 2 months and am faster/easier.
    You can be a better welder but at some level its like nascar,, a human can make a weld only so well or differences would be imperceptible for all practical purpose.
    The statistical differences at the top are so minor that the avg person is wasting his time trying to be the "best" Probably a rare day a top hand has a defect,,, its a question for Rig Hand,,, how many joints you do and how many you bust? Like you said,, if you never bust one it would obviously pay to spend the effort getting faster especially if there is incentive,,, than it would the rest of your life making a "better" weld.

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  • Sberry
    replied
    This relates kind of, I agree one can be too picky and it might not matter, no point in doing 10X better than needed and doing half the finished work and I never really found that quality and speed were tied together, not exclusively anyway.
    Some people,,, and this don't make them bad,, its just a fact never were suited all that well to production. My brother works as hard as I do, just takes 2 steps, maybe even 3 to do what I can do in one, doesn't look ahead to tune the setup or circumstances, even simple things like where parked, back the truck up a different direction or another foot, he will get up and off while I back right up and can stand on the tailgate, or I turn it so its a single move, he will let the drops hit the floor then pick them up to put in a box where I will move the box so the drops fall in, some got to stop and back up 2 or 3 times with a forklift to do the same I can wheel around to. If its repetitious I find the easiest way, its a reflex for me, some guys struggle and do it the same way they started in the morning, the same the next day, I can find stuff with little aides maybe where its easier for one man than it was 2.
    Some people this is second nature, some struggle. I rarely think about what I am doing, most of the time my brain is spit second ahead of the task at hand, sometimes way farther.
    Some seem to find resons to piddle with incontequential stuff too, drives me crazy, are we going to fill this whole hopper,, yes, well then is there a reason to put a scoop in and smooth it all out? I hate that type of work with a passion. Usually want to get away from it as easily as I can. Part of learning the craft is learning the speed after the quality. Really good auto body guys are poster children for this.
    Last edited by Sberry; 09-24-2011, 12:53 PM.

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  • jelias
    replied
    Originally posted by hurricunning View Post
    Talk to the X-Ray hands and ask how your shots are looking and what is allowable. If they are totally clean and there is some room for some defects then ask them if you can loosen up just a touch and see what happens on the next shots, as Rig Hand suggested. Some times there is way more allowance in the code than you may think. Never hurts to get to know those guys. As for Cornerstone's point of view I would agree with that as well, but it does kind of depend on how you are being paid. If there is an inch bonus or other perks for high production then it can indeed pay, and pay very well to cut some corners to tread the line of speed vs quality.
    I agree talk to the xray guys. I found that more helpfull than anything. Also see if you can look at the reports and the film if you have a drop. Than you can see for yourself what the problems are. Im assuming you have a QC guy to keep track of all this stuff and he should know what code your running under and how much bad weld your allowed. When i stopped welding i was allowed 1/32 in a foot. Not very much. But i also welded alot that was 1/4 inch in a foot so you have more room for error.

    Like rig hand said dont change everything all at once. Welding 20 joints that all fail is way worse than welding 10 that pass. But if you make small changes along the way you can look at the outcomes and keep making changes until you have it perfected.

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  • hurricunning
    replied
    Talk to the X-Ray hands and ask how your shots are looking and what is allowable. If they are totally clean and there is some room for some defects then ask them if you can loosen up just a touch and see what happens on the next shots, as Rig Hand suggested. Some times there is way more allowance in the code than you may think. Never hurts to get to know those guys. As for Cornerstone's point of view I would agree with that as well, but it does kind of depend on how you are being paid. If there is an inch bonus or other perks for high production then it can indeed pay, and pay very well to cut some corners to tread the line of speed vs quality.
    Last edited by hurricunning; 09-23-2011, 10:33 PM.

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  • Cornerstone
    replied
    I don't know about that righand, typically I'll weld each joint,either a rollout or a position weld, like my job tomorrow depends on it. Don't care to see ribbons flapping about on one that I let my standards go a little bit just to see what I can get away with.

    Buts that just the thing of it, you're cranking out the inches all day long and can get a little complacent now and then and boom!, there's a repair ribbon to help you start your day.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rig Hand
    replied
    How I go about it is if, and only if, x-ray is staying pretty close on your heels, meaning that what you weld today will be shot by sometime tomorrow. I will weld most welds like normal but on one or two I'll push the envelope a little farther. You want to ease into it so you don't get 12 repairs out of 13 welds in one day. If you don't get a repair out of it them start leaving a little more and keep repeating this everyday. I have taught myself a lot with this method, you will be surprised by how much will burn out.

    Good luck

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  • Eric Carroll
    replied
    The first time I worked a job where you had to get a certain amount of inches a day, the pipe had been hung and the root put in by the fitters. I was just barely making my inches and a older guy was killing everyone, seemed like every time I looked up he was screwing off. I was 19 at the time and had found about 50% older guys helpful and the other 50% wouldnt piss on you if you where on fire. He happend to be the helpful type- he was running his 7018 about 15 amps higher than I was used to and just burning the crap out of his bead. He would wire wheel the root and that was it- hot pass wide, going almost all the way up the bevel, keeping a real tight arc.

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  • dmk welding
    replied
    I just know that I'm paranoid about leaving something in and have to trust that my fill will clean it out. Its 100% x ray and when grinding my root pass out clean I rarely have a repair and I just need to trust that less grinding will get me the same results. I agree that fit up time is critical as well and a good helper is priceless in the field. I've been out of fabing for a few years and I guess I was just looking for any tips that the more experienced guys could give,

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  • Rig Hand
    replied
    Alligators have real short arms and when I make a bunch of roll out welds I forget that I have full length arms (My elbows stay pinned to my sides)

    What I'm getting at is you can grind a bead pretty quick and there isn't much difference in thickness of a trashy vs. clean bead. So if your inches behind at the end of the day I doubt its from your hot passing. You might be losing time bolting/un-bolting the spool piece in your roll out wheel, or making the fit-up, or the number of starts and stops per weld.

    I'm not trying to tell you your business I'm just saying you might look at the whole picture and not just the amount of wagon tracks your leaving to be burnt out.

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