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  • Miller de-emphasizing the Syncrowave

    Looking at the Miller website, I notice that the Synchrowave TIG welders are kind of an afterthought, with the Diversion and Dynasty promoted instead.

    For example, on the aluminum systems page, they show Diversions and Dynasties, but no Synchrowaves at all. http://www.millerwelds.com/landing/aluminum/

    On thie TIG page, the synchrowave series is a small box at the bottom.
    http://www.millerwelds.com/products/tig/

    Obviously Miller is pushing the inverter technology, I would assume because there is more profit in it. If somebody has a Syncrowave that is working, how can Miller induce them to upgrade? They do it by promoting the latest and greatest technology, inverters. Yes, I know people love their Dynasty welders, but the Syncrowaves are much cheaper. The Dynasty 200 lists at $4680, with the Syncrowave 200 at $2909. The Syncrowaves are even cheaper used, while the Dynasty is hard to find used, and pricey. Hard for most of us to justify the extra money, especially if you never weld outside your shop. If money was no object, a Dynasty would be nice, but I could not afford $4000 or more.

    I wonder also about the cost of production of the transformer vs inverter welders. Given the cost of metal, it seems like it might be cheaper to build an inverter. But I have not torn down two welders side by side and tried to cost the parts.

    I wonder also about relative sales numbers, especially in the 200 amp class where many users are hobbiests or occasional users.

    But probably I am missing something.

    Richard
    Syncrowave 200, Millermatic 211, Victor torch, Propane forge....

  • #2
    Inverter tig welders are smaller and much cheaper on power.
    Nothing welded, Nothing gained

    Miller Dynasty700DX
    3 ea. Miller Dynasty350DX
    Miller Dynasty200DX
    ThermalArc 400 GTSW
    MillerMatic350P
    MillerMatic200 with spoolgun
    MKCobraMig260
    Lincoln SP-170T
    Linde UCC305 (sold 2011)
    Hypertherm 1250
    Hypertherm 800
    PlasmaCam CNC cutter
    Fadal Toolroom CNC Mill
    SiberHegner CNC Mill
    2 ea. Bridgeport
    LeBlond 15" Lathe
    Haberle 18" Cold Saw
    Doringer 14" Cold Saw
    6 foot x 12 foot Mojave granite

    Comment


    • #3
      Miller Electric doesn't have to "push" the Syncrowaves.

      The Syncrowave machines have a 30+ year history of great service to fall back on. Commercial buyers know what they're getting when they order a Syncrowave. I suspect the Syncrowave machines will continue to be offered by Miller for many years to come.
      Syncrowave 250 DX Tigrunner
      Dynasty 200 DX
      Miller XMT 304 w/714D Feeder & Optima Control
      Miller MM 251 w/Q300 & 30A SG
      Hobart HH187
      Dialarc 250 AC/DC
      Hypertherm PM 600 & 1250
      Wilton 7"x12" bandsaw
      PC Dry Cut Saw, Dewalt Chop Saw
      Milwaukee 8" Metal Cut Saw, Milwaukee Portaband.
      Thermco and Smith (2) Gas Mixers
      More grinders than hands

      Comment


      • #4
        If I didn't need the portability, I would have a Sycrowave.

        A bomb proof transformer that could last several lifetimes.

        -Ian
        :~ATTITUDE MAKES THE DIFFERENCE!!!:

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm not sure Miller is "de-emphasizing" the Syncrowaves so much as trying harder to sell the newer, more expensive technology.

          I think by now they realize the Syncrowave is a well-proven, well-regarded, bulletproof machine...and they realize that most people in their market know that, too.

          OTOH, there are probably more people in their market who aren't familiar with inverter machines than who aren't familiar with transformers. So they try to up-sell the Dynasty stuff...and Diversions for happy hobbyists.

          But I don't think they're dissing Syncrowaves by any stretch. For example, if you look at the Miller Electric article on "TIG Welding Thin Aluminum" you'll see they sing the praises of the Syncrowaves eight times in just that one-page article.

          I also suspect that Miller would be making a big mistake if they discontinued the Syncrowaves because there are many of us who just don't trust something that fits in a suitcase to be as tough, reliable and long-lasting as these old Syncrowave transformers. Inverters just ain't got the track record yet.
          Last edited by Helios; 06-23-2011, 02:28 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            I agree the synch isn't obsolete, not sure I would buy a new one though when the pickins for used looks pretty good and they are reliable and somewhat easy to repair. I would feel better about a new Dynasty than used thats for sure and another large note or 1500 wouldn't scare me all that much if I had any sincere work for it or was a lucky lotto winner for a day. If I had intentions of welding finicky alum pieces on a regular basis it would play into the decision due to the fact that the adjustable freq makes even a novice tigger like myself feel like a super freekin hero. Feels like dial a bead to me.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by SundownIII View Post
              Miller Electric doesn't have to "push" the Syncrowaves.

              The Syncrowave machines have a 30+ year history of great service to fall back on. Commercial buyers know what they're getting when they order a Syncrowave. I suspect the Syncrowave machines will continue to be offered by Miller for many years to come.
              Miller KNOWS the 250 syncrowave is the BEST welder ever made. Absolutely.
              I have talked to them about it.

              As far as the electricity use. You are not welding that much, and what counts is quality. The thing you are building may last 100 years.

              Big production shops have more concern about power use, and choose different types of equipment.
              Copper costs money.

              Comment


              • #8
                Good points. Each has their advantages and drawbacks.

                Inverters are small and light enough to be stolen easily. But from day one there is a return on investment on electricity savings.

                Syncrowaves are big and heavy(copper) and much harder to steal. But can be somewhat of a power hog.

                As far as proven track record, I have been using inverter tigs for some 12 years now. They are very productive when used daily. Over a lifetime it pays for itself in savings over the Sync. I would not have anything else. I can kill transformer tigs just as fast as inverter tigs, and I have killed many of both. It's all about the hours.

                The defining factor in my mind would be the frequency of usage. Occasional use I would consider the Sync. Daily usage definitely the inverter.
                Nothing welded, Nothing gained

                Miller Dynasty700DX
                3 ea. Miller Dynasty350DX
                Miller Dynasty200DX
                ThermalArc 400 GTSW
                MillerMatic350P
                MillerMatic200 with spoolgun
                MKCobraMig260
                Lincoln SP-170T
                Linde UCC305 (sold 2011)
                Hypertherm 1250
                Hypertherm 800
                PlasmaCam CNC cutter
                Fadal Toolroom CNC Mill
                SiberHegner CNC Mill
                2 ea. Bridgeport
                LeBlond 15" Lathe
                Haberle 18" Cold Saw
                Doringer 14" Cold Saw
                6 foot x 12 foot Mojave granite

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Helios View Post
                  I'm not sure Miller is "de-emphasizing" the Syncrowaves so much as trying harder to sell the newer, more expensive technology.

                  I think by now they realize the Syncrowave is a well-proven, well-regarded, bulletproof machine...and they realize that most people in their market know that, too.

                  OTOH, there are probably more people in their market who aren't familiar with inverter machines than who aren't familiar with transformers. So they try to up-sell the Dynasty stuff...and Diversions for happy hobbyists.

                  But I don't think they're dissing Syncrowaves by any stretch. For example, if you look at the Miller Electric article on "TIG Welding Thin Aluminum" you'll see they sing the praises of the Syncrowaves eight times in just that one-page article.

                  I also suspect that Miller would be making a big mistake if they discontinued the Syncrowaves because there are many of us who just don't trust something that fits in a suitcase to be as tough, reliable and long-lasting as these old Syncrowave transformers. Inverters just ain't got the track record yet.
                  The track record is still not there.
                  I bought a new syncrowave 200 . I am worried about failure.
                  Some have already had failures of the syncrowave 200 as reported on this forum.
                  When they get used in a real production shop THEN we will find out if they can cut the mustard.

                  "I also suspect that Miller would be making a big mistake if they discontinued the Syncrowaves"
                  Mistake-O Grande!!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Donald Branscom View Post
                    Miller KNOWS the 250 syncrowave is the BEST welder ever made. Absolutely.
                    I have talked to them about it.

                    As far as the electricity use. You are not welding that much, and what counts is quality. The thing you are building may last 100 years.

                    Big production shops have more concern about power use, and choose different types of equipment.
                    Copper costs money.
                    Wow Donald you were reading my mind
                    Nothing welded, Nothing gained

                    Miller Dynasty700DX
                    3 ea. Miller Dynasty350DX
                    Miller Dynasty200DX
                    ThermalArc 400 GTSW
                    MillerMatic350P
                    MillerMatic200 with spoolgun
                    MKCobraMig260
                    Lincoln SP-170T
                    Linde UCC305 (sold 2011)
                    Hypertherm 1250
                    Hypertherm 800
                    PlasmaCam CNC cutter
                    Fadal Toolroom CNC Mill
                    SiberHegner CNC Mill
                    2 ea. Bridgeport
                    LeBlond 15" Lathe
                    Haberle 18" Cold Saw
                    Doringer 14" Cold Saw
                    6 foot x 12 foot Mojave granite

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Shovelon,

                      While I agree with most of what you say, I think power consumption, especially for the hobbiest/small shop, is overstated. While the actual consumption is higher when actually welding, it's still "in the noise level". You'll spend a lot more on gas than you will on electrical consumption.

                      A lot of the BS we hear thrown about today comes from the manufacturers trying to push the latest technology. A lot of our newbies feel that they just absolutely have to have AC frequency control, pulsing, and sequencing. THEY DON'T.

                      What they need is more hood time learning the fundamentals of tig welding. When all is said and done it still comes down to the guy holding the torch, not the machine the torch is plugged into.

                      Granted there are applications where the technology improves productivity, but most of the guys asking the questions are "not there yet".

                      I've had a Syncrowave 250 (of various vintages) in my shop for over 30 years. Still comforting to be pretty sure when I flip the switch that the machine is going to do what she's supposed to do. I'll get back with you in another 25 years or so and let you know how my inverter fared.

                      For so many "beginning tiggers" they'd be so much better served by buying a quality used machine than they are buying new Chi-Com junk (with all the bells and whistles). With most of this stuff it's not a question of if it's "going to let the blue smoke out", it's when.
                      Syncrowave 250 DX Tigrunner
                      Dynasty 200 DX
                      Miller XMT 304 w/714D Feeder & Optima Control
                      Miller MM 251 w/Q300 & 30A SG
                      Hobart HH187
                      Dialarc 250 AC/DC
                      Hypertherm PM 600 & 1250
                      Wilton 7"x12" bandsaw
                      PC Dry Cut Saw, Dewalt Chop Saw
                      Milwaukee 8" Metal Cut Saw, Milwaukee Portaband.
                      Thermco and Smith (2) Gas Mixers
                      More grinders than hands

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        When I use my friends 200 Syncrowave I notice a pretty big difference in power. (compared to my 200 Dynasty)
                        At least to me. The way it produces a puddle is much slower IMO.
                        I don't tell him how I feel so he won't feel bad.
                        I would not own one myself..... altho I like the 250 model mainly because of the 305 amps.
                        Also the newer syncs have a whole bunch more electronic junk to fail than the old ones, so I don't see much less risk over the inverters these days.
                        Just buy the best you can afford, but know that the more you spend the better it welds. Simple

                        www.facebook.com/outbackaluminumwelding
                        Miller Dynasty 700...OH YEA BABY!!
                        MM 350P...PULSE SPRAYIN' MONSTER
                        Miller Dynasty 280 with AC independent expansion card
                        Miller Dynasty 200 DX "Blue Lightning"

                        Miller Bobcat 225 NT (what I began my present Biz with!)
                        Miller 30-A Spoolgun
                        Miller WC-115-A
                        Miller Spectrum 300
                        Miller 225 Thunderbolt (my first machine bought new 1980)
                        Miller Digital Elite Titanium 9400

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          SundownIII,

                          You say tomayto, I say tomahto.

                          You have some valid points in regard to the learning curve on a Syncro. It is also a rock solid machine.

                          I gave up buying tranformer welders when the inverters just came out. My last transformer tig (LindeUcc305) left the barn a couple months ago because it never got used anymore. It just did not have the focused intense arc the latest technology has, and used 3 times the power. I also found that I could tune my Dynasty welders to mimic anything the transformer types can do.

                          Here in California I am so used to getting prison raped by the utility company that I make every effort to maximize productivity and minimize power consumption. The latest Syncro welders use on average 25 % more "on" power and 10 times the "idle" power that the miller inverters use. That is a heck of a lot of Prep H for the money.

                          It is nice Miller gives you lots of models to chose from.
                          Last edited by shovelon; 06-24-2011, 06:53 PM. Reason: clarity
                          Nothing welded, Nothing gained

                          Miller Dynasty700DX
                          3 ea. Miller Dynasty350DX
                          Miller Dynasty200DX
                          ThermalArc 400 GTSW
                          MillerMatic350P
                          MillerMatic200 with spoolgun
                          MKCobraMig260
                          Lincoln SP-170T
                          Linde UCC305 (sold 2011)
                          Hypertherm 1250
                          Hypertherm 800
                          PlasmaCam CNC cutter
                          Fadal Toolroom CNC Mill
                          SiberHegner CNC Mill
                          2 ea. Bridgeport
                          LeBlond 15" Lathe
                          Haberle 18" Cold Saw
                          Doringer 14" Cold Saw
                          6 foot x 12 foot Mojave granite

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Right, real power consumption for the hobby crowd doesn't add up to much, its really service demands where they shine. We have forum guys with 30A service to a garage that can get by if need from gensets or long cords, maybe the difference in needing service upgrade.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              3 phase derating

                              Good discussion.

                              Note that many of the inverters are single and three phase. Unfortunately, many of them have significant derating on single phase power.

                              Note that the Dynasty 350 duty cycle chart for single phase tops out at 30% duty cycle at 250 amps, per the owners manual. Miller says that you can probably get more than 250 amps of power out of it, but at a very low duty cycle. Of course, on three phase, they rate it at 350 amps at 30% duty cycle.

                              Another plus for the Synchrowave, then, is the lack of derating for single phase, as the Syncrowave is single phase only. On single phase power, the Syncrowave 250, at 310 amps, is really more powerful than the Dynasty 350.

                              Richard
                              Syncrowave 200, Millermatic 211, Victor torch, Propane forge....

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