How long would this take you?

[Sandy]

I don't know about stop watches but you've never run a business before, have you? A good manager pays attention this kinds of stuff and is constantly looking for process imnprovements. It is called profit margin.

Gary

I've seen a lot (a LOT) of formen, managers and supers come and go, every one still had their Gant charts, spreadsheets and stop watches in hand as they were sent down the road to "explore opportunities elsewhere". I'm still working, never been fired, never been asked to "explore opportunities elsewhere".

[GT6Steve]

I've been in a mining/manufacturing shop for almost three years now. Their machines, materials and tools are ****. They don't even have number drills in the place! I'm constantly angry and frustrated while trying to do a job that I know I could do in one third the time at home.

So if some dip**** walked by me with a stopwatch at one of those moments I might forget how bad the economy is!

Lest that sound ill informed, let me add that I've been management and maintenance in manufacturing for thirty years now. I know how it's done and what the hurdles are. A large part of management is listening....

[GerryR]

.... Assuming when they make more money i get a raise or a bonus.

Therin is one of the problems. I'm in an area that is somewhat depressed when things are good everywhere else. As an example, some people haven't gotten raises for 5 years in one place and 3 years in another. They are told how tough things are and "we're all lucky to still have jobs, so we each have to work harder and take on more responsibility." In the meantime, one owner owns several $250K cars and another takes his Montana hunting and fishing vacation trips twice per year. Everyone else is trying to figure how to pay the light bill at the end of the month. I'm not one of their employees; I've been in business for myself for 20+ years, one man operation. When I bring people on to pick up some of the load, it's not with a stop-watch in my hand.

[ChrisV]

Stopwatch Calrification

Guys,
Thanks for all the feedback, some clarification: The stopwatch is just a kitchen type timer to keep track and it was given to the employee to keep track of the time a given task takes (I was not walking around timing each task).

As a whole I am just trying to get a better account of production times (this must happen sooner then later) and also to determine if the employee is performing based on the qualifications from the initial interview. If the employee is performing to the set expectations then there will be no issue. Result: the frame was built correctly and I let that be know.

There were just a few stitch welds at each joint, the table will not see any hard use so there was no need for heavier welding.

Thanks again.

[Sberry]

Use your info wisely. My last boss would quote a job at say 23 hrs. I would bust my butt cutting reasonable corners & if the job went well with no unexpected issues I got it done in 19 hrs. I would think, great we made a couple extra bucks.

Next time we get the job he would quote it at 19-20 hrs. cause that's what it took last time.

I have met this genius, never will understand it.

[con_fuse9]

A large part of management is listening....

Amen,

The best manager I'd ever had (software job) knew nothing about software.... more importantly he knew that he knew nothing about software. He thought his job was to do whatever to make our job as easy as possible. He succeeded when we succeeded. He took the blame if we failed. He gave the credit when we succeeded.

At the end of a particularly long 2 year project, we come to find out that our group was asked to speed up our part of the deliverable by 2 months to save the project overall a few $100K. 2months over 2 years, doesn't sound to bad. Our manager refused. Said we will deliver when promised. Which we did. In fact we were the only group that did. Everyone else promised 2 months early but failed to deliver on time. In contrast, we hit all our milestones and the only time we worked overtime (remember salary work, we don't get paid for overtime - exception in the law for software engineers) was when we took a long lunch (a favorite restaurant was 1hr away).
So, on time, on budget, and his personnel not trashed.

If you ever hear a manager 'complain' how tough his last project was - and how many people he lost, divorces, people fired. Remember this, he is not 'complaining' he is 'bragging' and needs to get his @ss handed to him.

Never saw a Gant chart in over 4 years. Was occasionally asked how long I would estimate to do something (A number which I'm guessing he then multiplied by at least 2x .... maybe 3x).

[Donald Branscom]

"Those who rule with an iron hand, also rule with an iron head."

[JTMcC]

I time everything we do (and have for almost 20 years) unless it's a task that we've done over and over and I have sound numbers for it.
That's how the guy responsible for bidding work gets priceless info (and no, it's not available on the internet or in software), and streamlines the process.
It's never offended any of the cats who work for me. They know that the better I bid, the more money in their pocket. It has nothing to do with hounding an employee to us. We don't hound anybody, good hands work, slugs go away. It does have a lot to do with sleeping well at night after turning in a large bid.
They also know that if I just take a wild guess, they'll be out of work.
Besides they are pretty slick & fast dudes so they fear no stop watch.
Good quotes get you work that you can make money on and keeps you out of the dark hole of money losers.
I love quoting against people who don't know their numbers because they either don't get the work, or they get it and lose money so you can go to the auction when they sell out. Nobody turns in a fine tuned bid without putting an accurate time on every task involved.
A good example is the simple frames a guy asked about in another thread, the replies he got were waaaaaay high to me, evidently not for the ones who replied.
If you think people can cram into their head a time for every task that gets done over the years you're smokin the crack.
Good numbers = good income for everybody including the guy sweeping the floors.
A stopwatch might infuriate the slugs of the world, but sound productive hands will understand what's going on and what it means to their personal income.
That's my take.

JTMcC, still timing and a taking notes.

[fjk]

I time everything we do (and have for almost 20 years)
...
Good numbers = good income for everybody including the guy sweeping the floors.
A stopwatch might infuriate the slugs of the world, but sound productive hands will understand what's going on and what it means to their personal income.
That's my take.

JTMcC, still timing and a taking notes.

"When you can measure what you are speaking of and express it in numbers,
you know that on which you are discoursing. But when you cannot measure it
and express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a very meagre and
unsatisfactory kind." - Lord Kelvin

[jworman]

Use your info wisely. My last boss would quote a job at say 23 hrs. I would bust my butt cutting reasonable corners & if the job went well with no unexpected issues I got it done in 19 hrs. I would think, great we made a couple extra bucks.

Next time we get the job he would quote it at 19-20 hrs. cause that's what it took last time. However this time one of the pcs. was bowed & had to be straightened, a flame cut pc. from a supplier was cut to long & had to be burned shorter & then the saw blade had to be changed, etc. Now it took 24 hrs. Now we lost money on this job.

My point is you really need to work, communicate with your employee.

This isn't a welding story, but it is a time story that seems to fit here.

I worked for a large company that started making and servicing large photo copiers. When the Model 2 came out the plant sent down the word that they expected that it should take 10 hours a month to service each machine. A really great employee should be able to do it in 9 hours.

Who wasn't a 'great employee'? Very soon everyone was reporting 9 hours a month in maintenance time.

Before long the plant came along and said "Whoops, we miscalculated. It takes 9 hours to maintain these machine. A 'really great employee' can do it in 8.

Immediately 8 hours a month was being reported as the time to maintain these machine. Of course it was taking a lot more time, but nobody was going to say what it took.

Finally there was a big meeting. The plant people came along and said "we have no idea how much time it takes to service these machines. We have been lied to so much, we don't have a clue".

Soon we were out of the copier business.

[GerryR]

Bean-counter mentality. Nobody seems to care about creating and keeping loyal employees. It's just about the bottom line. Well, the bottom line is that just about everything is coming out of other countries these days. I just don't understand it

[gwiley]

Bean-counter mentality. Nobody seems to care about creating and keeping loyal employees. It's just about the bottom line. Well, the bottom line is that just about everything is coming out of other countries these days. I just don't understand it

I'd say that keeping loyal employees HELPS the bottom line. Training new folks is expensive and attrition slows projects down. A bean counter who knew his business would include retention in sunk cost calculations.

Think about it - how long does it take for "the new guy" to get up to speed? In my industry (computers) it can take 6 months, my guess is that in the trades like welding it might be a little faster but I would bet not much faster when you factor in all the things that go into an efficient and productive worker.

[JTMcC]

I'd say that keeping loyal employees HELPS the bottom line. Training new folks is expensive and attrition slows projects down. A bean counter who knew his business would include retention in sunk cost calculations.

Think about it - how long does it take for "the new guy" to get up to speed? In my industry (computers) it can take 6 months, my guess is that in the trades like welding it might be a little faster but I would bet not much faster when you factor in all the things that go into an efficient and productive worker.

Right-o.
I disagree with the quoted post too.
Everybody I know in business is pretty well infatuated with getting and keeping high quality hands. And getting and keeping high quality customers. Without either you are dead in this business.
Given the large number of out of work slugs in the market today they almost have to be
It's one of those things that "sounds good" to the uninformed but not true in most cases. I really doubt how many welders the poster has hired over the years.
I can't comment on the lower level production type low skill trigger puller jobs but in the construction field I see companies treating sound, productive welders "right" more often than not.
Think about it, how does a business owner in Welding World make money when he's driving away good employees and good customers. He doesn't.
Good, happy, well paid, welders that produce product with minimal supervision(whatever it may be) in a steady, reliable manner (and show up every day, on time and sober) are the Mothers Milk of a welding business. Money in the bank, to be guarded, treasured, respected and well fed.
Ask any decent employer.

JTMcC.

[Sberry]

I was fooling around contemplating going back to work, it was just a thought but was interested in someone I could really help, an outfit with certain aspects they maybe did well but where their execution was lame. One I was looking at that was a possibility but not sure i can get the owner off the pot to make changes, missing a lot of work procured in the field and repeat biz due to the idea of finding guys he is going to "train" etc. Not all problems can be solved behind the desk in an office.
Going to work for good company that executes well it would take a lot more work to be outstanding and I can't help someone that does their job well. Was looking for a spot where I could make big improvement, outfit that did some things well but had room to come up to speed in the field.
Some jobs can done with less specialized and skilled men or the time difference may not be an issue but got to agree with JT, in the welding biz you can hire a good man for the same or near wage rate as you can a slug in many cases, makes sense to keep the best you can.
Was building some stuff last week, I have a helper and a master mechanic part time. A lot of difference in project speed when the master is here, we figure out in general what we are going to do (design and build) but once that happens life gets easier, he layout, do design, solve problems, etc and I come up behind with the plasma cutter and do one thing at a time. My helper is good at what he does and he does what i want but the master can solve his own problems and come up with workable solutions besides being able to burn and weld well. Makes a huge difference in output with another man, like hitting over drive when he comes in the door, makes it look easy to.

[Sberry]

Training men is such a huge issue, so over looked even by large companies. Specialization lead to the rise in the human and made industrialization possible, much easier to train a guy to do one thing well. Over the years I have tried a lot of stuff, I finally gave up to some extent. Not everyone can be trained to do everything. I finally find a few guys that I find what they can do well and stick them on that, training is just too slow and its tough to make someone observant if they are not, I try to get some to ask for help vs trying to solve their own problems. I send a guy out with roto tiller, I look out an hour later and he is down the row 50 ft and been pulling the cord for an hour, now I am behind with work I thought would have been done, so much easier to get the mechanic and 5 mins later its running right. Mechanic can sit there the rest of the hour and still paid for himself.