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  • #16
    All,
    Thank you for the excellent feedback! This has been very informative. There are 2 main factors that are considered in a project - cost & time. I don't talk enough with other welders on how long a given project should take or cost.

    I will try to clarify some of the points mentioned through out the thread:


    1. Employee was never interrupted & material was already unloaded
    2. A stopwatch was used so that each segment of work could be timed (cleaning, cutting, etc) also time could be stopped for breaks.
    3. Welders experience from 1 -10: 5
    4. Boss (me) checked in one time only for about 1 minute
    5. Fab table could fit whole project
    6. Material cut with Dewalt saw (Metal blade) w/ 10' rollers on each side
    7. Miller MIG 210
    8. This was a shop project not a client project
    9. Employee has been with us for 3+ months
    10. Cleaning - wipe down all sides of full lengths

    SundownIII - there was no set-up, this was a simple project (rectangles) that I knew everyone here would be familiar with. As I said in my first post, I was just asking for rough #'s on how long it would take. Sure we have to keep in mind experience, equipment, etc. Almost everyone was in the 3-5Hr. range

    Finally - the results, clean, cut, fit/weld = 3.5 hrs

    One thing I want to note: Before the build I mentioned to the employee what I thought how long the different phases would take (3Hr total). I think this put a spark in their step. I'm almost positive it would of took longer if I didn't mention any expectations prior.

    My overall intentions:
    Clearly convey my expectations
    Record times to improve time estimations and speed up the estimating process
    Compare how long I think something will take vs. the actual time an employee takes. As an owner my motivation is greater which may lead to quicker times...

    Just an idea but would it make sense for a sticky thread to be started where project specs could be posted and we could reply with time & cost...? In todays economy we need to have these #'s "tuned in" as best as possible.

    Thanks again for the feedback!
    Chris
    87' Mustang GT - Blown 306 Road Racer
    Millermatic 210
    Spectrum 375
    [email protected]
    www.ckvalentidesigns.com

    Comment


    • #17
      Stopwatch???? Really ??? No offense at all but I wouldve walked if I had known that . Im sure the said employee did not. That being said production versus quality is a fine line and your treading close to the low side of that. Put yourself in his shoes which none of us were born welders and think how he felt. (Boss gave me this project told me a timeline and will critique everything i do geez i gotta be fast and spot on). Its alot of pressure for the guy and nowadays jobs are not falling in anyones lap. What you should do based on the experience level you stated he has is help him. Show him the shortcuts or faster ways to accomplish any job given to him and i guarantee youll see faster and better results. I always worked with my welders and fabricators and I also allowed for contingencies (screwups) with a plus or minus 1 hr . Judging by the pics the job looked good and was square. Even though its an inhouse project is irrelavant. Not trying to bust your balls or anything but the guy did a good job and i appreciate someone who doesnt rush rush rush just to meet a timeline. I understand time is money when quoting but be realistic to the customer that a quality finish takes time. They will appreciate that much more then next day crappy work. And again work with him ...show him the ways of the blue light saber so to speak lol lol . Cheers....

      Comment


      • #18
        Use your info wisely. My last boss would quote a job at say 23 hrs. I would bust my butt cutting reasonable corners & if the job went well with no unexpected issues I got it done in 19 hrs. I would think, great we made a couple extra bucks.

        Next time we get the job he would quote it at 19-20 hrs. cause that's what it took last time. However this time one of the pcs. was bowed & had to be straightened, a flame cut pc. from a supplier was cut to long & had to be burned shorter & then the saw blade had to be changed, etc. Now it took 24 hrs. Now we lost money on this job.

        My point is you really need to work, communicate with your employee.
        MM250
        Trailblazer 250g
        22a feeder
        Lincoln ac/dc 225
        Victor O/A
        MM200 black face
        Whitney 30 ton hydraulic punch
        Lown 1/8x 36" power roller
        Arco roto-phase model M
        Vectrax 7x12 band saw
        Miller spectrum 875
        30a spoolgun w/wc-24
        Syncrowave 250
        RCCS-14

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by ChrisV View Post
          4. Boss (me) checked in one time only for about 1 minute
          Here's something that can be extremely frustrating to a worker. A boss, foreman or whoever's in charge only stops in once or twice throughout the whole process, then starts getting excited over why something isn't done. Often times there is more to a project than what is initially expected and many times other factors pop up that add time (Machine downtime for example.) As was previously mentioned, it's always a good idea to communicate with the employee and ask questions before making judgements.

          Of course that's not to say that some guys are just plain slow, and lot's of those guys will make excuses, but if a guy has been working for you for a while you should have a pretty good idea of how much effort he puts in and his abilities.

          Just my $ 0.02.
          Owner of Burnt Beard Fabrication & Welding Ltd.

          BigBlue 500D
          Dynasty 200DX
          Millermatic 211
          4' Box and Pan Break
          IR compressor

          Comment


          • #20
            First one

            ChirsV, Remember the first one will always take longer, the more you do, the faster you become, and the more efficient you become.
            A pre squared jig also helps.
            Good Luck,
            Bob
            Millermatic 252 w/30A
            Big Blue Air Pak
            Ellis 3000 Band Saw
            Trailblazer 302 Air Pak w/ Wireless Remote
            8-RC
            Dynasty 200 DX
            XMT 350 MPa w/S-74 MPa Plus
            Millermatic 211
            Passport Plus
            Spectrum 625 X-TREME
            Lincoln SA-200 Blue Tint Red Face '63
            2-Lincoln SA-200 Red Face '68
            SA-200 Black Face '59
            SA-200 Green Lite '84
            SA-200 Green Lite '80
            SA-200 Red Face '69
            SA-200 Red Face '66
            SA-200 Green Lite '81
            '70 Black Face Round Barrel

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by ChrisV View Post
              All,
              Thank you for the excellent feedback! This has been very informative. There are 2 main factors that are considered in a project - cost & time. I don't talk enough with other welders on how long a given project should take or cost.

              I will try to clarify some of the points mentioned through out the thread:


              1. Employee was never interrupted & material was already unloaded
              2. A stopwatch was used so that each segment of work could be timed (cleaning, cutting, etc) also time could be stopped for breaks.
              3. Welders experience from 1 -10: 5
              4. Boss (me) checked in one time only for about 1 minute
              5. Fab table could fit whole project
              6. Material cut with Dewalt saw (Metal blade) w/ 10' rollers on each side
              7. Miller MIG 210
              8. This was a shop project not a client project
              9. Employee has been with us for 3+ months
              10. Cleaning - wipe down all sides of full lengths

              SundownIII - there was no set-up, this was a simple project (rectangles) that I knew everyone here would be familiar with. As I said in my first post, I was just asking for rough #'s on how long it would take. Sure we have to keep in mind experience, equipment, etc. Almost everyone was in the 3-5Hr. range

              Finally - the results, clean, cut, fit/weld = 3.5 hrs

              One thing I want to note: Before the build I mentioned to the employee what I thought how long the different phases would take (3Hr total). I think this put a spark in their step. I'm almost positive it would of took longer if I didn't mention any expectations prior.

              My overall intentions:
              Clearly convey my expectations
              Record times to improve time estimations and speed up the estimating process
              Compare how long I think something will take vs. the actual time an employee takes. As an owner my motivation is greater which may lead to quicker times...

              Just an idea but would it make sense for a sticky thread to be started where project specs could be posted and we could reply with time & cost...? In todays economy we need to have these #'s "tuned in" as best as possible.

              Thanks again for the feedback!
              Here is what I go by, how long would it take you?

              Comment


              • #22
                Stopwatch!!!. The last boss who did that to me I handed him the mig gun and told him you do it and I told him to send me my paycheck and walked out while telling him where to put the stopwatch. He told me I did not know how to weld when his equipment kept breaking down and I had to jerry rig it to get it to work. I was teaching the bosses “tenure” drinking buddies how to do simple tasks (jigs/layout/bending tube) and no body knew how to even turn on the old tig machine he had, let alone weld something with it.
                To the OP sorry man but if you want to do a time study on tasks you need to break each task down that represent basic units of motion and activity. There are many books and information on this. One of the early time study pioneers were the “Therblig’s” created by the Gilberths, hence their name spelt back words. To do this correctly it would take you a lot longer time than actually building the product in your requirements.
                T.J.
                Miller Dynasty 300DX
                HTP MIG 240
                HTP 380 Plasma

                Bridgeport Milling Machine
                South Bend Lathe
                Etc. Etc....
                tjsperformance.com

                Comment


                • #23
                  Frankly, I'm surprised it only took 3.5 hours.
                  I think I would have taken a lot longer, and I do this stuff for a living.
                  I guess "the devil is in the details." I guess the actual welding was minimal.

                  Close up pictures would tell a clearer story.
                  Maxstar 200DX
                  Maxstar 300DX
                  Dynasty 200DX
                  Passport
                  Spectrum 701
                  LMSW-52 spot welder

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I have been asked to set times for certain tasks in a production setting before to be weighed against other workers with the same tasks in order to get an average of those tasks for setting production times and goals. Never with a stopwatch mind you. That being said, that is a normal part of production but if you run a job shop and most of your jobs are one offs or small runs I would think it would be **** near impossible to gauge times that close for those types of tasks. A rough ballpark is about as close as you will get in that situation, you just have to estimate a bit over. I also think that lighting a fire under someones *** is only going to make him nervous and put pressure on him, probably resulting in more screwups than before. Good luck.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I am the new guy at my work @ 3 months,nobody says anything but I know I am slower than everyone else,but I keep getting faster..Most of my holdup is searching around for tools (place is a mess) , or waiting for a chance to use the crane

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by torch View Post
                        I am the new guy at my work @ 3 months,nobody says anything but I know I am slower than everyone else,but I keep getting faster..Most of my holdup is searching around for tools (place is a mess) , or waiting for a chance to use the crane
                        Being pushed stifles creativity; a relaxed atmosphere breeds innovation. Speed increases with experience. Everybody's in a hurry these days, and not many people appear to want to help the new guy. The stop-watch mentality drives me wild. There are always the slow, non-productive workers, but they are soon dicovered. The willing workers should be helped along because these are the ones that become loyal to the company. But, start that master-slave stop-watch mentality going and you are sure to have your company end up....like what many companies in this country have become.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Typical management BS. Even when this employee gets to be the fastest in the nation along with the rest in the shop, management types will still be walking around with stop watches trying to cut some time off. It's how management make themselves feel like a productive part of the company=====judging and managing. It's how they make themselves feel better than those they employ.

                          Just go get one of those sticks all the 3rd world donkey drivers use. Whack whack whack. Donkey a little slow, whack whack whack. Donkey running at a dead run, whack whack whack. Doesn't matter how fast the donkey is going or how big the load is, whack whack whack.

                          Nothing has changed in 6,000 years, management is still whacking the donkey, they just use a different type of stick is all.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sandy View Post
                            Typical management BS. Even when this employee gets to be the fastest in the nation along with the rest in the shop, management types will still be walking around with stop watches trying to cut some time off. It's how management make themselves feel like a productive part of the company=====judging and managing. It's how they make themselves feel better than those they employ.

                            Just go get one of those sticks all the 3rd world donkey drivers use. Whack whack whack. Donkey a little slow, whack whack whack. Donkey running at a dead run, whack whack whack. Doesn't matter how fast the donkey is going or how big the load is, whack whack whack.

                            Nothing has changed in 6,000 years, management is still whacking the donkey, they just use a different type of stick is all.
                            I don't know about stop watches but you've never run a business before, have you? A good manager pays attention this kinds of stuff and is constantly looking for process imnprovements. It is called profit margin.

                            Gary

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by SundownIII View Post
                              I think several "responders" just got set up here. At first I thought only a few new guys would take the bait, but then more jumped in.

                              I think, if you really look at the original question, the OP was asking "Did my new employee take too long to build this table?"

                              Frankly, without knowing his shop layout, what equipment he has available, how much did he help/hinder the job, what is meant by cleaning the material, etc, etc. it is difficult to say what is a reasonable time.

                              The OP needs to understand that the responses come from people familar with the equipment available, know how it's used, etc., etc.

                              A new employee, working with equipment he's not familar with, could take as much as twice as much time as the highest estimate. That may simply mean that this was the first time he did a similar setup, or that he was being extra careful so as to impress the boss with the quality of work.

                              Frankly, "the boss" is in a better position to tell if the employee took too long, than any poster on this board.
                              I agree.
                              This happened to me one time too.
                              I was working for a large corporation and one day I came into work and the big boss came over and handed me two meal coupons for a fancy place to eat. They were worth about $100.00!
                              I asked why I was getting these free meals and the boss said that they had a private firm come and check my work and that they thought I had done the work properly. Scary. I felt like they were spying on me, and from then on I was always worried. They finally went out of business.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Regardless of what kind of managment you work under work still needs to be done in a timely manor. Also at bad economic time like we have to bid every thing conservativly say six hours for this project would cost you the work. I dont believe someone should be walking around with a stop watch checking time, thats a little extreme. If this employee building this worked there for three months but had experiance when he was hired i would say any more than four hours on the this job is alot. Someone that only has three months experiance is a different story. I trick to getting good bids is for everyone to work together. managment cannot just make numbers up using a formula, and the guys on the floor cannot expect to be lazy and f*** off all day. I guess my outlook on getting things done faster is the faster i can do it the more money the company makes which puts more money in my pocket. Assuming when they make more money i get a raise or a bonus.
                                Linclon power mig 350MP

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