Question about liability......

[old but new]

There`s insurance

and insurance. Just went through it for starting a welding business. I carry
Architects and Engineers professional liability, plus General Liability for my
construction management business. That`s a requirement for being under
contract to a County for services. I havent pushed for professional liability for the
welding, so far just general liability and inland marine to cover the equipment
and tools. The general liability covers things like backing up your truck and
hitting some County equipment. What I will have to end up with is 2 x professional
liability and 2 x general liability. The policies have to name the County as " also insured ". Trying to ease into the welding without too much pain. My contracts
have to be approved by the County`s legal system, and they demand alot.
Then there`s Workmans Comp.....

old but new

[Broccoli1]

I wouldn't think twice about being sued by some one who was injured on the Ramp- not saying you shouldn't have Insurance

What you should really be concerned with by not having any insurance is working at the Track. You are more likely to have an incident while working than being sued down the road for someone face planting on the Ramp.

Insurance company gonna go after the Track, owner of Track may go after you

*Pedestrian trips over your Cords, Start a fire etc*



Sheeite I pay around 30 grand a year in Insurance (That include vehicles and such) but it sucks arse writing that check just to make sure I have my arse

[Sberry]

Just as a side note I went to a seminar where they had rep speaking on the labor laws and had someone that it had cost 100 K to settle a matter. He was recommending on how to be sure you had the "right lawyer", one specializing in this kind of issue,,, well first thing they did was contact him and big surprise, 2 lawyers get together and you got court case, we had similar issue I settled for 35 cent stamp, ha

[Broccoli1]

another side note HA!

The track owner is taking a Huge risk letting you on his property w/o insurance

[con_fuse9]

Please don't seek legal advice over the web. Go hire a lawyer. Lawyers aren't just there to defend you when you get sued, they are also there to help make sure you don't get sued in the first place.

The fact that you are even asking means you understand there might be a risk. Hire a lawyer and see what you can do to mitigate that risk.

You need to ask about incorporating, insurance and what waivers and assumptions of risk.

In the end, your going to have to have your friend sign something that essentially says that even though the thing you built looks like a ramp, under no circumstance should your friend ever let someone use it as a ramp and if someone does manage to use it as a ramp, your friend assumes any and all liability coming from, use, movement, looking at, smelling the ramp like object and your friend agrees to indeminfiy you (ie pay you back) for any and all legal expenses that may arise from you building the ramp like object.

[cruizer]

I'm with confuse, though your building it to the ramp owners specs, there is no reason you would or could get sued by any other person besides the owner of the ramp.

I'd probably do it for cash, as the ramp / business owner can't legally pay you with cash (IRS Tax issues), so really won't come back at you anyways, unless you declared that cash as payment from that job. That would be silly to do.

[fdcmiami]

of course you can pay or be paid in cash, as long as it is declared. thankfully we haven't reached that point....yet.

[turbo38t]

Thanks for the replies guys.....I was not going to build the ramp at the track. I was going to transport it there after construction. I am building the one for my friend( I risk I am willing to take). I do not think I am going forward with the ramp for the public track. Dave

[JTMcC]

[QUOTE=cruizer;252894] there is no reason you would or could get sued by any other person besides the owner of the ramp.

QUOTE]



Wrong. You can appear in court for an unlimited number of reasons. The farmer down the road can sue you for building an attractive nuisance because their kid fell off your ramp, the list is literally endless.
My opinion is that when someone sails off your ramp and breaks their neck (hypothetically), they have no legal standing because they assumed the risk of engaging in inherintly dangerous activities regardless of any waiver.
But you can't waiver away liability for what the courts deem defects in workmanship or engineering. Signed waivers are almost not worth the paper they're printed on in weldingworld.
The first paragraph is fact, the second two are my opinion based on fact.

JTMcC.

[deafman]

no insurance, but plenty of lawyer BS

Here in Sacramento...Kid was on bicycle on side of road. drunken driver going over speedlimit hits the kid and kills him. He is charged and convicted of manslaughter. He found a lawyer to take a case saying the parents are 50% at fault as the kid didn't have a bicycle helmet on. This is currently happening in court here. Too many lawyers.
Liability waiver isn't enforceable and is often found to contain loopholes. My daughter was invited to a birthday party with other 8 year old kids. I was required to sign a waiver releasing any and all liability AND any criminal actions. I didn't sign the waiver so she couldn't go. I highly doubt the waiver would have held up in court anyway.
I wouldn't touch the ramp. Too much liability.

[Gaslight]

The only legal thing you need to know is that you can be sued for sure. For starters lawsuits often start out with a broad brush, so you can go through an extended period of time worrying, and paying costly legal bills, and then get dropped from the suit. In other words even if the advice you got from a lawyer or insurance agent was that this was low risk, you are still there. You can also get sued completely without reason. Some states have laws against harassment, but a lot of the problem is having your head above ground in the first place.

From an economic perspective, I distinguish between the situation where a person has few assets and the risk arises from their main employment; and the other extreme where you have lots of assets (own your own home, clear), and the payoff is at the margin. Even if you get the insurance, in the second case you are still taking a huge risk for minimal payback. This is the hobbyist dilemma. Worse, some hobbyists are superstars, better than the average pro, but when it comes to court will have no ability to prove their worth, because they lack any credentials. Oftentimes, the reason people take this stuff on is because of ego issues, where it would sure be nice if they could just get a little of the recognition that comes from being a paid professional. Not worth it. Do the math.

You can get insurance. And you should if you are in the biz, but you have to understand that insurance companies never pay off. Not fully true of course, but you should assume that on the way in. So again, if you have no other main means of earning an income and you can get insurance to cover an industry standard set of risks, then it makes sense. But they will not cover you if they feel your case is too expensive, is unusual, or there is any way they can weasel out of this. Surprisingly people often get mad at me for saying this, even against the starkest revelations from industry whistle blowers showing what standard practices are. Companies don't want to be know for walking away from their responsibilities, though there are lots of examples of even that. But they know there isn't unlimited support for claimants either, and will see you in court for all the expensive or oddball stuff. Also assume you are not covered if you haven't read all the hundreds of pages of fine print in your contract and fully understood it.

Insurance is designed to spread risks. Since the mid 80s companies have changed what they do by trying to eliminate risk, and refusing to pay all claims, while continuing to price their business as though they were still in the underwriting of risk business. And investing their money as though they actually understood modern finance. Insurance is an important business, but it has always had its sketchy side also.

[MMW]

My opinions only -- If you have insurance you can still be sued. Wether you win or lose it will still cost you money. Attorney fees, time off work, etc. If it is settled out of court your rates can rise or you can be dropped & then have a hard time getting new insurance.

Building & selling the ramp would have less liability than doing a trailer hitch or something else that when it fails can injure innocent bystanders. Example - Person crashes & has a catastrophic injury while performing stunt on ramp has a very low risk to injure someone else & also has some responsibility by performing a dangerous activity or a trailer hitch breaks & causes a large accident in which many serious injuries happen through no fault of their own.

It all comes down to how much risk are you willing to take & will you be thinking about the what ifs all the time to the point it makes you to nervous to do anything? When accidents happen everyone who had anything remotely to do with it will get sued.

[MMW]

When I went to get insurance I was asked to provide details of the work I do including pictures, web sites of companies that I do work for, etc. Because I had one customer who erects municipal water tanks & I would occasionaly fab custom pipe fittings for them I would be put into a high risk pool where I was told that my policy would then be "bid" on by several companies & would be significantly higher than if I didn't do that kind of work. The example I was given was a guy who only does railings can be be fit into a catagory where the ins co knows the risk & can provide a policy accordingly. If you build/repair anything & everything the ins co can not put you in a catagory, there for your policy will cost much more because of the unknowns.

[Gaslight]

One issue that is a big amateur issue, but I don't know the answer to is, let's say you are a pro, and starting and for the next 30 years you will be insured etc.... Now you are an amateur, and you think you would like to give it a try, and if it doesn't work out, what the heck. So you get insurance. Not as much fun as you hoped, not making any money, so you drop out. What happens if there is an accident with something you made in the one year you were covered? You aren't going to pay 2 grand a year for the rest of time because you made five pieces one year, but then you won't be covered, i'm guessing. Anyway obviously the chance you will get sued over a couple of jobs is pretty remote, usually takes more time in the box to get that kind of luck, but you never know.

[Bob Warner]

Build your friend his ramp and have him sell it to the riding park as a second hand ramp with no idea who built it.

Then build your friend another ramp for his own use.