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  • #16
    So this is a bevel cut, prep, fit and weld out in position? What position and where are they located ( ground level, up in a rack, along a wall 7' off the ground) ? What is the contractor basing their expectations on?

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    • #17
      If you make 80% of your living with this customer, and they think you're too slow, then I'd be gettin a beveling machine.
      That's a big chunk of productivity right there. Plus life will be easier, work will be more fun and your kids will get better grades.
      If he's told you it's taking too long then he's probably told other people too, like other welders who will make those welds in shorter time.


      JTMcC.
      Some days you eat the bear. And some days the bear eats you.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by JTMcC View Post
        80 minutes IS a good pace, if you go to make the weld, go to lunch and then shoot the breeze for another half hour.
        I wish I was bidding against guys who do ONE 8" in over an hour.

        I've worn out several stopwatches timing welds, cuts, etc and I routinely see 36" .660 wall real line pipe (that is visual inspector on sight and 100% x-ray) go at an hour and 40-50 minutes in a trench box (two welders) from the time the pipe swings over the ditch to the time the trucks are rolling up. That's
        .660 W with a three bead cap.
        Another decent example is 36" .250 W junk pipe (casing) fit up and welded out (again in a trench box) in less than an hour and a half by one welder.

        I understand that the inside world turns a lot slower, but this guy isn't working inside.
        If you're taking that time you are in serious danger of gettin rolled.

        JTMcC.
        one of my guys makes 80 min welds on 8 inch pipe wouldnt be workin for me much longer...
        welder_one

        nothing fancy, just a few hot glue guns for metal
        www.sicfabrications.com

        Comment


        • #19
          Yes that is cut,clean ,grind a bevel fit up( no pipe clamp Just wrestling it with a frontend loader in to position3-6 ft. in the ground,mud ,water, no suicide box but good tapered back slopes) and tack then weld out.Also this pipe has a epoxy food grade coating on the inside and a epoxy coating on the outside that has to be burned off with the torch and then wire wheeled clean because you will not be able to follow your line when you cut because the epoxy will start burning off ahead of your cut and you do not have a line to follow.The epoxy on the insde will not let you get a good smooth cut and therefore alot of grinding time. I met up with a rig welder while at a stop and rob and asked him ,he seemed to think I mite be moving about rite or a little to fast,Oh yes let me remind you guys its 90 degrees plus a heat index of + or - 10 degrees down here in the Houston ,Texas area,the heat alone will slow you down.Yes maybe 25-35 minutes in nice cool40-50 derees,but I am no sloucher ,If you guys are welding up pipe that fast than you are screwing yourself if you work by the hour even under contract you are literally working yourself to a slow death.Problem be the pipeline guys before your time set a fast standard and you have old school pipeline foremen hollering "hurry-up lets go "and usually on a pipeline you may have several rig welders and you are all trying to outdo one another so it looks good on you for the next project.Foreman says"Yea ole John Doe will not be welding for me no more ,he is to slow",I understand his point of view looking for production and he has all you "rig welders" humpin to his beat,that is why you weld out pipe so fast because you set the pace allready or you are"scared of your job". But I understand fully the feeling to not have work , so no money coming in
          ;
          /22x45 concrete slab with 2 overhead cranes(trolley style with electric hoist, huge shade tree to weld under
          33x33 enclosed shop when its to cold or windy outside
          miller 210
          miller 875 plasma
          victor oxy/accet
          unihydro 45ton ironworker
          miller 180 tig
          ole lincoln ac/dc buzzbox
          milwaukee power tools
          and everything in between
          2007 trailblazer 302
          Bailiegh 210 miter saw-2008
          Beer Fridge
          6000# cat forklift
          36" port-a-cool fan
          Dake G-75 Belt grinder
          3035 Spoolgun

          Comment


          • #20
            I do not mean to step on toes but I am not a so called "pipe welder" by profession,I do three or four of these type projects a year out in the field .
            And I will say it is an art to stick welding pipe,nothing you will pick up overnite,but if you do it every day you will eventually get fast and efficient at it. I do mostly general fab and repair work at my shop,heavy equip repair, lots of tig on aluminum and stainles handrails etc,so I have a very good idea how long it takes to fit and weld up pipe(handrails) ,and other fab projects,and beleive me you better be cutting it close when you are bidding these projects because there is a lot of competition out there.
            ;
            /22x45 concrete slab with 2 overhead cranes(trolley style with electric hoist, huge shade tree to weld under
            33x33 enclosed shop when its to cold or windy outside
            miller 210
            miller 875 plasma
            victor oxy/accet
            unihydro 45ton ironworker
            miller 180 tig
            ole lincoln ac/dc buzzbox
            milwaukee power tools
            and everything in between
            2007 trailblazer 302
            Bailiegh 210 miter saw-2008
            Beer Fridge
            6000# cat forklift
            36" port-a-cool fan
            Dake G-75 Belt grinder
            3035 Spoolgun

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by shade tree welder View Post
              Yes that is cut,clean ,grind a bevel fit up( no pipe clamp Just wrestling it with a frontend loader in to position3-6 ft. in the ground,mud ,water, no suicide box but good tapered back slopes) and tack then weld out.Also this pipe has a epoxy food grade coating on the inside and a epoxy coating on the outside that has to be burned off with the torch and then wire wheeled clean because you will not be able to follow your line when you cut because the epoxy will start burning off ahead of your cut and you do not have a line to follow.The epoxy on the insde will not let you get a good smooth cut and therefore alot of grinding time. I met up with a rig welder while at a stop and rob and asked him ,he seemed to think I mite be moving about rite or a little to fast,Oh yes let me remind you guys its 90 degrees plus a heat index of + or - 10 degrees down here in the Houston ,Texas area,the heat alone will slow you down.Yes maybe 25-35 minutes in nice cool40-50 derees,but I am no sloucher ,If you guys are welding up pipe that fast than you are screwing yourself if you work by the hour even under contract you are literally working yourself to a slow death.Problem be the pipeline guys before your time set a fast standard and you have old school pipeline foremen hollering "hurry-up lets go "and usually on a pipeline you may have several rig welders and you are all trying to outdo one another so it looks good on you for the next project.Foreman says"Yea ole John Doe will not be welding for me no more ,he is to slow",I understand his point of view looking for production and he has all you "rig welders" humpin to his beat,that is why you weld out pipe so fast because you set the pace allready or you are"scared of your job". But I understand fully the feeling to not have work , so no money coming in

              There's just tooo much here to reply to but I'll try to hit a couple of the obvious ones.

              I love it when people ask a question on the internets, then argue with the answers that they really didn't want to hear.

              The customer (who cuts the checks) thinks you're too slow. Your response is to ask on a website (and argue the resonses) and ask an annonomous welder down at the convinience store. Good business plan #1.

              You seem to want to work slow because your charging by the hour. Good business plan #2. It would make a great marketing campaign, "We might charge by the hour, but at least we're slow"! Nice long term "customer retention" thinking. Bye bye 80% of your gross when someone produces twice the work at the same cost.

              You assume that everyone who resonded that the time was excessive only works in perfect weather and has never seen heat, humidity or sub zero temps. OOOOHHHHK.

              Why would someone, in a paying, profit making venture on outside pipe not use one of the greatest labor saving devices known to man....the beveling machine? You could go back to how it was when my buddy G started out and cut the pipe with a hammer and chisle, form the bevel with a file, and clean the welds with a block brush. Think of what you'd make in a day using that technology. WooHoo! Instant 9 hours per weld, think of the money! Down side is having to feed the horses that pull the welding rig, and cleaning the stalls on Sunday.

              You claim not to be a "pipe welder" but then you tell us all about the pipeline world, where did you gain that knowledge? Heard it down at the stop and rob?

              I've worked many years in main line construction and those numbers I mentioned don't result in people "working themselfs to death", it's just experienced men welding steady and using the tools that have been available since the 1940's. Lot's of those guys work all day and feel up to pumping iron, running, going out to a local range to shoot a bit or chasing girls AFTER the work day is done. The 36" . .660 W numbers come from a good friend of mine who just turned 63 years old and has been happily welding on road bores for the last several years. There are thousands of welders in the U.S. who can routinely match those numbers they are not spectacular, just regular, steady welding by qualified hands. Normal everyday welding times, 128 degrees, 20 below, whatever.

              These guys aren't "screwing themselfs", they are just working in a field they really enjoy and making a nice living working 4-7 months per year. That leaves plenty of time to ride your motorsickle, hunt, fish, shoot/reload, play with the kids, whatever you like. It's a normal work day, not slave driven labor. And it includes a break in the morning, lunch, and a break in the afternoon, plus knocking off a little early almost every day. That's what productivity gets you.

              Production is the key to making money in the field and always has been since the first construction dude stacked one rock atop the other in 5000 BC. Not milking every dollar you can out of a prime or an owner. Working smarter, and using the labor saving devices available be thay tools, equipment or consumables. Those guys survive long term.

              The "I get paid by the hour" mentality is for losers in wage paying jobs and even those guys eventually get the axe and the honest productive people (in wage paying jobs) who give a days work for a days wage will have their slot. I've gotta admit I've never met a buisness owner in any field who thought it was a good thing to work slow.

              As for "scared of my job", I've never been scared of a job in my life and I've flattened several foremen, general foremen and superintendants over the years, luckily I've work in fields where a little rowdyness is just part of the gig every now and then. Still there are states I tend to avoid

              So all that long winded rambling text is really just to say: I (and others) were trying to help. To answer the question you asked based on experience in the workplace welding a wide variety of pipe for a living. You did ask the question in the first place. Take it or leave it.

              JTMcC.
              Some days you eat the bear. And some days the bear eats you.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by JTMcC View Post
                80 minutes IS a good pace, if you go to make the weld, go to lunch and then shoot the breeze for another half hour.
                I wish I was bidding against guys who do ONE 8" in over an hour.

                I've worn out several stopwatches timing welds, cuts, etc and I routinely see 36" .660 wall real line pipe (that is visual inspector on sight and 100% x-ray) go at an hour and 40-50 minutes in a trench box (two welders) from the time the pipe swings over the ditch to the time the trucks are rolling up. That's
                .660 W with a three bead cap.
                Another decent example is 36" .250 W junk pipe (casing) fit up and welded out (again in a trench box) in less than an hour and a half by one welder.

                I understand that the inside world turns a lot slower, but this guy isn't working inside.
                If you're taking that time you are in serious danger of gettin rolled.

                JTMcC.
                I guess i forgot to ask the all important question, is the OP doing it solo or with a helper/apprentice. I was assuming 80 mins start to finish solo. fighting with 8" solo can't be a picnic, if that is the case.
                American By Birth, Union by Choice!

                4th generation Pipefitters LU 537

                SpeedGlass 9000x Hood
                Miller Elite Titanium 9400 Hood

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by shade tree welder View Post
                  Oh yes let me remind you guys its 90 degrees plus a heat index of + or - 10 degrees down here in the Houston ,Texas area,the heat alone will slow you down.
                  Guess he's never been to Phoenix
                  "Bonne journe'e mes amis"

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I have no opinion, nothing, about welding up an 8" pipe, that's just not my business. However, never once in my life have I selected a slower process, or deliberately dragged my feet on a job, just to increase my billable hours. That's just wrong. Not professional.
                    Obviously, I'm just a hack-artist, you shouldn't be listening to anything I say .....

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Phoenix is a piece of cake compared to Hoover, Laughlin/Bullhead, Parker, Blythe, Yuma (anywhere on the river), Gila Bend too. You know it's true.

                      JTMcC.
                      Some days you eat the bear. And some days the bear eats you.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by JTMcC View Post
                        Phoenix is a piece of cake compared to Hoover, Laughlin/Bullhead, Parker, Blythe, Yuma (anywhere on the river), Gila Bend too. You know it's true.

                        JTMcC.
                        Oh yeah, I know them areas very well Nothing like Power Line R-O-W's thru the Harquahala Valley and Palomas Plains in the middle of July
                        Last edited by davedarragh; 05-20-2010, 05:22 PM.
                        "Bonne journe'e mes amis"

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by JSFAB View Post
                          I have no opinion, nothing, about welding up an 8" pipe, that's just not my business. However, never once in my life have I selected a slower process, or deliberately dragged my feet on a job, just to increase my billable hours. That's just wrong. Not professional.

                          Even tho you're a hack and I shouldn't listen, I agree.
                          It's as bad as adding hours if you think nobody's paying attention.
                          Kind of like that other thread where the guy does work for "free", then adds extra hours on the next job or two to make up for it. Good grief, either charge for it like a man.....or don't. Don't lie to them to make em love you while you play with the hours, just do the stupid work.
                          People who are dragging thier feet hoping to rob the customer on an hourly job are ripe for the pickin' by companies that just want to get the work done and get out.
                          At least that's what a guy at the 7-11 told me. He was a homeless dude but used to be a welding contractor.

                          JTMcC.
                          Some days you eat the bear. And some days the bear eats you.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Production is the key to making money in the field and always has been since the first construction dude stacked one rock atop the other in 5000 BC
                            As they learn more about ancient pyramid construction they find that it wasn't slave but skilled trades, they found records of crews keeping track and being competitive.
                            Working smarter, and using the labor saving devices available be thay tools, equipment or consumables.
                            Yes, I for one an not scared to buy the tool if I think its going to speed it up, sometimes there is a huge return on investment. I make the decision every day and if I have an any idea (toss the emotional issue of parting with the money) I can make a return by spending some money vs hard work I will. Might be a complex machine or like last week bought some new screwdrivers, couple sockets, razor knives,etc stuff so routine it reduces guys looking for them.
                            Figuring out when and where it pays is a skill all its own, I am willing to take time to do a one/off deal by a simple method even if its a bit more work or when the cost is too high to invest or is inconvenient (sometimes a shovel is the most practical way) or make another pass with the welder but if this is something I am facing again, especially if its routine or industry standard I am going to be looking hard and fast at buying (beveler), getting a bigger welding rod and knocking a pass out of the process

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Pipe Welding

                              How long does a weld take?

                              A GOOD weld takes as long as it takes. If somebody asks me how long a weld will take I automatically know they have no idea about welding. It takes what it takes - Way too many variables.

                              Here's my 2 cents

                              1) Tell the inspector to stop looking over your shoulder and at the same time checking his stop watch!

                              2) You F$%K one of these joints up your reputation will really be down the river. (So make sure there tight!)

                              3) Maybe re-evaluate your methods to make sure your client is getting his moneys worth.

                              4) Get yourself a helper/fitter you shouldn't be grinding bevels (You're a welder!)

                              5) If your client still isn't happy well it just ain't your fault (Find yourself another client who appreciates your work - lifes to short)
                              Bobcat 225
                              The rest is bright RED "Tig & GMAW"
                              Just got a new Hypertherm 30

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                What seems to be the slowest pat of the job? Are there enough of these joints that it makes sense to buy/lease a beveling machine? Maybe a wire feeder could help. I started as a helper with guys who had mostly came up in nuke plants and they were slow as you could ever be. The first 45 deg offset I helped on was 4" sch 40 and it took all day. My first shutdown opened my eyes to how other people do things. Downhill guys tend to be faster as a result of the process and that pace goes on to other jobs. If you are doing all that work and not dragging a$$ at all ,and the customer isnt happy, you need to change something. Maybe some dogs or a jewel clamp would help. We have some 60"- .75 wall casing pipe to do monday, I'll let you know how long it takes.

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