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  • Code questions (HELP DAVE)

    I just picked up some self shielding NR 212 And it is rated for welds with no impact requirements.
    Alright what's an impact requirement? And is it covered under D1.1
    The job I'm doing is not governed by AWS weld code but Just to be on the safe side I'd like to know if this wire can (should) be used for this type of weld.

    The joint is a Hor Fillet and and overhead fillet on A36 steel Non load bearing Non structural and No WPS.
    Thanks
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  • #2
    Sounds like you can use just about any mild steel wire or rod you want, with no requirements for the weld.

    NR212 does have maximum plate thickness limits, which change based on the wire size. If you look up the wire on the Lincoln website, you can see the thickness limits for each wire type and size. .035 211/212 is typically limited to around 1/4" or 5/16" plate.
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    • #3
      Yeah I got .045 which is limited to 3/4". I won't be getting near that as the plate I'm welding is 3/8".
      I'm just sweating it because since we are doing the work it will be inspected by or competition and we don't need any trouble. passing inspection for the crane.
      It won't be weld inspected just an annual crane inspection. But we are doing some heavy repairs to this thing.
      I'll post pics.
      Miller Syncrowave 200 W/Radiator 1A & water cooled torch
      Millermatic 252 on the wish list
      Bridgeport Mill W/ 2 axis CNC control
      South bend lathe 10LX40
      K.O. Lee surface grinder 6X18
      Over 20 years as a Machinist Toolmaker
      A TWO CAR garage full of tools and a fridge full of beer
      Auto shades are for rookies
      www.KLStottlemyer.com

      Comment


      • #4
        I don't think I'd weld a crane with 211/212.
        7018 or 232/233 would be stronger.
        Millermatic350P/Python, MillermaticReach/Q300
        Millermatic175
        MillermaticPassport/Q300
        HTP MIG200
        PowCon 300SM, MK Cobramatic
        ThermalArc 185ACDC, Dynaflux Tig'r, CK-20
        DialarcHF, Radiator-1
        Hypertherm PowerMax 380
        Purox oxy/ace
        Jackson EQC
        -F350 CrewCab 4x4
        -LoadNGo utility bed
        -Bobcat 250NT
        -PassportPlus/Q300
        -XMT304/Optima/Spoolmatic15A
        -Suitcase8RC/Q400
        -Suitcase12RC/Q300
        -Smith oxy/propane
        -Jackson EQC

        Comment


        • #5
          Here's a shot of the hoist. Bad corrosion all over this thing. My job on this was to install patch plates and ribs. WPS gave material type, and dimensions to use along with fillet weld size. other that that no other info on sheet.
          But it does have an engineers stamp and signature on it which is all that matters
          Miller Syncrowave 200 W/Radiator 1A & water cooled torch
          Millermatic 252 on the wish list
          Bridgeport Mill W/ 2 axis CNC control
          South bend lathe 10LX40
          K.O. Lee surface grinder 6X18
          Over 20 years as a Machinist Toolmaker
          A TWO CAR garage full of tools and a fridge full of beer
          Auto shades are for rookies
          www.KLStottlemyer.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by kcstott View Post
            I just picked up some self shielding NR 212 And it is rated for welds with no impact requirements.
            Alright what's an impact requirement? And is it covered under D1.1
            The job I'm doing is not governed by AWS weld code but Just to be on the safe side I'd like to know if this wire can (should) be used for this type of weld.

            The joint is a Hor Fillet and and overhead fillet on A36 steel Non load bearing Non structural and No WPS.
            Thanks
            Impact requirements are found in the welding codes. They are in place to qualify the weld for crack resistance. In other words the testing is done to see if the weld will stop a crack and not just let it go to a failure. It is also referred to as notch toughness. The testing is very specific in its requirements. The notch toughness or CVN (charpy vee notch) numbers are a very good source of information to let you know what type of service the weld can be placed in. The tests are performed at different temperatures in order to test the brittle nature of the weld when in service at that temperature. There are many questions where the answers can be differentiated from these tests.

            Comment


            • #7
              I can't believe an engineer would write out all the details but not specify wire/electrode type. If you want no chance of it coming back to you then I would ask if you can get him to sign off on the wire you will be using or specify a wire/electrode. If he won't do it then get someone to sign off that it is o/k to use this wire. FYI, I have used .045 nr212 on bucket repairs & other stuff without any problems. It is a good wire. Last I checked the nr232 was not available in .045, only bigger.
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              • #8
                I'll get the sheets today copy them to pdf and post so you can See i'll blot out the engineers name to keep him out of hot water.
                All this stuff is non load bearing so I'm not to worried about it. I just don't want someone down the line writing this thing up and it ends up at Osha.
                Now if it was structural I'd have to test first before I could legally weld on it As I have no certs. I'm primarily a tig welder
                Miller Syncrowave 200 W/Radiator 1A & water cooled torch
                Millermatic 252 on the wish list
                Bridgeport Mill W/ 2 axis CNC control
                South bend lathe 10LX40
                K.O. Lee surface grinder 6X18
                Over 20 years as a Machinist Toolmaker
                A TWO CAR garage full of tools and a fridge full of beer
                Auto shades are for rookies
                www.KLStottlemyer.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  "Sudden Impact"

                  Originally posted by kcstott View Post
                  I'll get the sheets today copy them to pdf and post so you can See i'll blot out the engineers name to keep him out of hot water.
                  All this stuff is non load bearing so I'm not to worried about it. I just don't want someone down the line writing this thing up and it ends up at Osha.
                  Now if it was structural I'd have to test first before I could legally weld on it As I have no certs. I'm primarily a tig welder
                  Hey KC, I just saw this one. Those "impact requirements" refer to "lo-temp" (-20F) which I'm sure you won't see in Nat'l City. NR-212, (as are most Innershield wires) is a lo-hydrogen wire. You should be fine. Run VU fillets, and the low end of the scale for your OH welds.

                  Looks like the hoist trolley is a little "sea sick." The bridge/gantry outdoors,or is that all from inside?

                  As with anything, "When In Doubt, Find Out."

                  Keep us posted

                  Dave
                  Last edited by davedarragh; 11-18-2009, 10:07 AM.
                  "Bonne journe'e mes amis"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    First, if there's nothing structural or load bearing that needs to be repaired, why are you welding patches on it in the first place?

                    Second, responding to Dave's comments, impact requirements are NOT low temperature only; a valid test MUST specify the temperature it was done at, so an engineer can consider the variable in his calculations, and in his specs. Temperature specified is just a parameter, so you know these results match up to this temperature. Many welding consumables are tested at several different temperatures, since not all behave the same at low/high temps.

                    Neither 211 (T-11) or 212 wire, is required to undergo a charpy test. Thus the restrictions on use, both thicknesses, and seismic applications. This was not a problem in California, until the Northridge earthquake a few years ago, a fairly mild earthquake as far as the Richter scale goes, but far too many buildings were severely damaged or fell down. Today, to my knowledge, 211, or even 212 (which is basically 211 with a little nickel added, to improve ductility), is not allowed on structural applications anywhere in California, unless just thin-gauge steel (sheet-metal trusses).
                    Obviously, I'm just a hack-artist, you shouldn't be listening to anything I say .....

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      E-71T-11 & E71tG-G

                      Originally posted by JSFAB View Post
                      First, if there's nothing structural or load bearing that needs to be repaired, why are you welding patches on it in the first place?

                      Second, responding to Dave's comments, impact requirements are NOT low temperature only; a valid test MUST specify the temperature it was done at, so an engineer can consider the variable in his calculations, and in his specs. Temperature specified is just a parameter, so you know these results match up to this temperature. Many welding consumables are tested at several different temperatures, since not all behave the same at low/high temps.

                      Neither 211 (T-11) or 212 wire, is required to undergo a charpy test. Thus the restrictions on use, both thicknesses, and seismic applications. This was not a problem in California, until the Northridge earthquake a few years ago, a fairly mild earthquake as far as the Richter scale goes, but far too many buildings were severely damaged or fell down. Today, to my knowledge, 211, or even 212 (which is basically 211 with a little nickel added, to improve ductility), is not allowed on structural applications anywhere in California, unless just thin-gauge steel (sheet-metal trusses).
                      This is true. These 2 wires are for "General Fabrication With No Low Temperature Impact Requirements" according to Lincoln's website.

                      Since the Northridge Earthquake, wires meeting D1.8 Seismic specs are required in all structural applications.

                      I too have to wonder, why any patches, etc are being made on this equipment, if there is no load bearing or structural integrity involved.

                      KC asked what the "no impact requirements" represented in this wire, I was giving him the explanation, according to Lincoln's literature.

                      Lincoln makes Outershield and Innershield wires (in fact were the pioneers in production) meeting the AWS D1.8 specifications for seismic zones.

                      Dave
                      "Bonne journe'e mes amis"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by davedarragh View Post
                        Since the Northridge Earthquake, wires meeting D1.8 Seismic specs are required in all structural applications.

                        Dave


                        The northridge earthquake was in 1994, D1.8 only came out recently.
                        And the requirements on consumables used in a structure will be whatever is called out in the contract documents. They may spec Fema or D1.8 or they may not.
                        A lot of structural work is done with no reference to either, particularly in areas that aren't a high seismic zone.
                        There are a lot of things that need to be in place that aren't load bearing or structural like guards and covers.

                        JTMcC.
                        Some days you eat the bear. And some days the bear eats you.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Aws d1.8

                          Originally posted by JTMcC View Post
                          The northridge earthquake was in 1994, D1.8 only came out recently.
                          And the requirements on consumables used in a structure will be whatever is called out in the contract documents. They may spec Fema or D1.8 or they may not.
                          A lot of structural work is done with no reference to either, particularly in areas that aren't a high seismic zone.
                          There are a lot of things that need to be in place that aren't load bearing or structural like guards and covers.

                          JTMcC.
                          Yes, it was approved in 2005. Duane Miller, Lincoln Electric's Manager of Engineering Services was instrumental in the supplement's reasearch and subsequent drafting.

                          Dave
                          "Bonne journe'e mes amis"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JTMcC View Post
                            There are a lot of things that need to be in place that aren't load bearing or structural like guards and covers.

                            JTMcC.
                            Exactly.
                            There is a piece of channel that supports two rail clamps that runs right next to the load bearing channel. It has areas that are rusted through and the inspecting crane company will not allow this crane to pass it's annual inspection until that area in patched.
                            See here's the thing D14.1 covers crane structures but there is nothing about the hoist and since we are the manufacturer we can do just about anything we want to it as long as we have an engineer sign off on it.
                            Now if I was making a repair to the structure or the runway Yes I'd have to be certified. But to repair a hoist it looks like any joe blow could do it.
                            Like I said I have the engineering drawing with no spec on filler or process. Just what plates he wants and where.

                            And yes Dave This is the 10 ton Unit from the power plant in Carlsbad CA.
                            It's right next to the Ocean and gets hit hard every day with salt air.
                            I'll be installing it on monday.
                            Funny thing is my grandfather worked on this plant when it was being built in 56.
                            And now i'm out there working on it again Almost like it's sentimental
                            Last edited by kcstott; 11-21-2009, 07:23 PM.
                            Miller Syncrowave 200 W/Radiator 1A & water cooled torch
                            Millermatic 252 on the wish list
                            Bridgeport Mill W/ 2 axis CNC control
                            South bend lathe 10LX40
                            K.O. Lee surface grinder 6X18
                            Over 20 years as a Machinist Toolmaker
                            A TWO CAR garage full of tools and a fridge full of beer
                            Auto shades are for rookies
                            www.KLStottlemyer.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by davedarragh View Post
                              Since the Northridge Earthquake, wires meeting D1.8 Seismic specs are required in all structural applications.

                              Dave

                              What I was saying is that this quote is a real stretch since there was more than a decade between the earthshake and the document.
                              And, that even after the document only a part of the structural welds made have to conform to D1.8.
                              Some people will read the sentance I quoted and replied to and be led far astray.

                              JTMcC.
                              Some days you eat the bear. And some days the bear eats you.

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