Civility

[ridesideways]

Most people are rude on the web simply because they won't in all likelyhood wind up with a broken nose.

yeah true, but people who ask the vaguest unintelligible questions on the web are taking advantage of the the welders who have worked a lifetime to acquire their experience and are willing to give it away for free on this message board. the lazy poster lets someone else ferret out the necessary details, rather than providing any details up front, or *gasp* doing any research on their own.

the internet is a community of strangers. if you walked into a welding shop and went up to a welder who is on break and asked him, "hey my welds aren't shiny, what are some cures i can try?" you very well might get a broken nose for such a vague question. at the very least you'd get laughed out of the room.

if someone asks a reasonable question and provides a reasonable amount of detail, then i believe the members of this forum are more than happy to provide a straight answer without sarcasm. this is an amazing free service to people who visit this board. the "cost" to get this amazing free advice is to ask reasonable questions, provide reasonable detail, and do a nominal amount of research up front so you aren't asking a retarded question.

the people who ask vague/unintelligible questions are the ones who are being rude, IMHO. they are basically being lazy and taking advantage of other people's time.

[59halfstep]

ridesideways
Quote:

if someone asks a reasonable question and provides a reasonable amount of detail, then i believe the members of this forum are more than happy to provide a straight answer without sarcasm. this is an amazing free service to people who visit this board. the "cost" to get this amazing free advice is to ask reasonable questions, provide reasonable detail, and do a nominal amount of research up front so you aren't asking a retarded question.

the people who ask vague/unintelligible questions are the ones who are being rude, IMHO. they are basically being lazy and taking advantage of other people's time. Quote


I have posted this before and never had anyone respond to it. I would like to hear some thoughts on it.

When a person signs up for a board they are restricted from making a post until they perform a certain set number of searches.

The searches will start to get them used to the board and how to use it. This will also cause them to start to research the questions that are on their mind when they joined the board.

After they spend the time with those searches they will know how to form questions, what information should be included and better search for what they seek. After the set number of searches are performed their ability to post will kick in.

I see this as a win win situation.

Now blow some holes in this.

Charlie

[Broccoli1]

Charlie-

I doubt Miller wants to restrict the traffic through their site/forum with such rules.

Bottom line is that they want Traffic- even if it comes with a couple Rude Posts They Moderate pretty good and let the Threads go how they go unless it gets really bad.

If I had to do all of that in the beginning... clickity click and I'm on a nutter site. I imagine a few would like to seen that happen but not Miller- heck I ended up buying a Passport Plus.


Really... bottom line for any member......

just don't respond to a thread ya don't like, you'll be happier.

[H80N]

Broccoli
Very well put!!

"just don't respond to a thread ya don't like, you'll be happier."

Thanks
Heiti

[tom37]

I agree about the restrictions totally from Miller's point of view. I started with a very Chinese MIG machine, and probably would have never thought there was so much difference in machines with out reading here.

Now thanks to the forums I am the proud owner of a plasma and a 211 . Thats a good thing tho.

And so far I must not be on the retarded question asker list, since I haven't been blasted yet.

Guys and gals if there is any ladies here, You all are a great bunch of people. I cant even explain the thanks that is deserved by all that help out. Its pretty intimidating to walk in a shop and ask a question to a bunch of die hard I'm better then you welders.

At least the ones that I have talked to dont act like they are better even tho they usually are. The professionals that is.

Thanks guys for any and all help that is passed my way.

[Vicegrip]

Sometimes people don't know that don't know something. Reading the answer to someone elses question often opens up a new line of thought. Keep in mind that many that do not ask the basic questions get info from the public answers to others questions. Searching past threads does not update anything and does not expose the info to the newcomers. If you have been here since fire was invented don't answer or click unless you feel like it. The cut and paste "Check Millers' free and easy to use welding calculators, guides and training" answer points out the trove of information to the poster and others as well.

I am glad I don't work where a guy risks a punch for asking a simple or stupid question. I have trained many helpers in my line of work. I treat stupid questions as uninformed questions. Yes there are and always will be stupid questions but there is no excuse for stupid answers.

[OSU-WE10]

I have posted this before and never had anyone respond to it. I would like to hear some thoughts on it.

When a person signs up for a board they are restricted from making a post until they perform a certain set number of searches.

Charlie

Although your idea seems sound form that point of view, there is the simple fact that if you don't want to respond to a thread that is vague, you don't have to.

Some people do not care how vaque or stupid the question, they just like to help others out. They usually ask the right questions in return so that the vaque/stupid questions can be turned into more descriptive issues and then the problems can be solved.

However, many of the responses in these threads are just useless spam. It comes back to the fact that they have the right to post whatever questions they want, in whatever way they want, and you have the right to not answer them unless you feel so inclinded.

[ridesideways]

there is the simple fact that if you don't want to respond to a thread that is vague, you don't have to.

no, you still don't get it. the rude responders *want* to respond to the vague question. they *want* to point out that the question is vague/retarded/unintelligible or whatever.

i am saying that the rude responders have a certain right to be rude when they respond to a vague/retarded/unintelligible question, because the poster has been so disrespectful of member's time so as not to bother doing even a nominal amount of research before opening their flapper.

it boils down to: ask retarded question, expect a retarded answer. if you don't know enough to determine if your question is retarded, then do some nominal research before opening your flapper. if you don't bother doing the nominal research before opening your flapper, then you're implicitly agreeing to role the dice as to whether or not you're gonna be laughed out of the room.

[OSU-WE10]

no, you still don't get it. the rude responders *want* to respond to the vague question. they *want* to point out that the question is vague/retarded/unintelligible or whatever.

i am saying that the rude responders have a certain right to be rude when they respond to a vague/retarded/unintelligible question, because the poster has been so disrespectful of member's time so as not to bother doing even a nominal amount of research before opening their flapper.

it boils down to: ask retarded question, expect a retarded answer. if you don't know enough to determine if your question is retarded, then do some nominal research before opening your flapper. if you don't bother doing the nominal research before opening your flapper, then you're implicitly agreeing to role the dice as to whether or not you're gonna be laughed out of the room.

I am sorry, I just cannot agree with you on this. I guess that I have different values and view points. I don't believe that I have the right to be rude to people for asking questions, no mater how stupid/vague or lack of effort towards finding the answer that they have done.

However, I will agree with you that doing research before asking questions is a good idea, but of course not everyone is going to do this. But being rude to them is not a solution to the problem. And I do not agree with the "ask a retarded question, expect a retarded answer" mentality. Asking stupid questions is a way of progression. Stupid questions are the building blocks of educated questions.

[H80N]

????

What sort of weird alien life form has the RIGHT to be Rude????

On the planet that I live on, manners and courtesy are considered a virtue.. and thus knowledge is shared and society has been allowed to progress for the most part... and the knuckledraggers howl at the moon...

Thanks
Heiti

[ridesideways]

What sort of weird alien life form has the RIGHT to be Rude????

everyone does. we don't live in a police state here. actions have consequences. when someone asks an infantile question that wastes everyone's time, i don't have much sympathy when the guy is laughed out of the room. i personally can't be bothered spending more than a couple seconds actually contributing to the laughing, but people vary.

imagine a world where there are no consequences for asking infantile questions that waste people's time.... where the go-getters are always polite and happily go along with the most infantile line of questioning, working their hardest to help each lazy person arrive at reasonable answers. dude, the world would become full of lazy people who won't lift a finger to solve problems on their own time. consequences like "being rude to a retarded question" are an important part of training adults that you can't go around being lazy/infantile all day with amnesty.

on the other side, if miller decides to revoke excessively rude people's privileges, well then that's their right too. i don't have much sympathy for the person who is revoked either. again actions have consequences.

in the end, the world settles into an equilibrium where the lazy people and go-getters find a way to co-exist together, albeit with some contentious interaction sometimes.

[H80N]

Unclear on the Concept

For those Unclear on the Concept...... we are all guests of Miller.. and as such "Reasonable" people would be expected to excercise their manners....
for further clarification, please RE-Read my original post when I started this thread..
TNX
Heiti

[SundownIII]

I have to side with Ridesideways and 59halfsteps position here.

Ironically, it seems that some of the "nicest" posters are also the "least informed" posters. Yea, they're very polite in their incorrect response, but what was really accomplished here.

When a poster asks a question that covered on page 3 of his owner's manual (just an example), then he deserves a little poke in the direction that maybe he needs a little more "self help" before he comes on an internet board and basically screams, "I'm lazy, I'm uninformed, I've put forth no effort on my part---but, someone needs to tell me the answer".

I'd never profess to know everything I "need to know" about welding (there are a lot of more experienced guys here), but I have been at it for more years than I care to think about. It never ceases to amaze me at the amount of "bad, wrong, sometimes flat out dangerous" advice put out by some of our high post count posters. I don't have a clue what their purpose is, other than to maybe try to "impress" the newbies. Sometimes it's very difficult to sit back and read post after post of BS from a guy who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. If you haven't seen this, you either haven't been here long, or you're lacking in experience yourself.

When a poster "exposes" himself in this manner, he leaves himself open to criticism. That's just the way it goes. Sometimes, it seems, there's no "nice" way to get through to these guys. I sure as heck don't know everyone's background on the board but I do know that many/most of my welding mentors would not fall into the "nice guy" category. They were blunt, forthright, and expected you to "pull your share of the cart".

Anyone who comes on the board expecting to "learn to weld" from an internet board, is sorely mistaken. Great place for tips, guidance, other's experiences, but you need to get the basics down elsewhere. Just as an example, the guy who comes on with the "I've got a bottle of C25. Can I use this for tig welding aluminum?" That, my friends, is a STUPID question. Per Webster, stupid is defined as "lacking intelligence or reason".

Have we become such a "politically correct" society that we feel the need to "reward" lack of effort? Has the "school of hard knocks" been replaced by the "feel good" society?

Dang, I hope not.

[H80N]

Sundown
I have neither proposed being politically correct nor am I against "Constructive Criticism"..... what I do feel is counterproductive and a waste of time are the "Clever" responses that are just plain nasty and mean spirited..... like I said please reread my original post..
tnx
Heiti

[FATFAB]

I have no doubt that I make the top ten list of "rude" posters.


I flatly refuse to allow politically correct thinking dictate my thoughts. I am blunt direct and feel sometimes the stupid just need a good slap on the snot locker to get them to wake up.


Rude or politically correct.

Rude =
1. discourteous or impolite, esp. in a deliberate way: a rude reply.
2. without culture, learning, or refinement: rude, illiterate peasants.
3. rough in manners or behavior; unmannerly; uncouth.
4. rough, harsh, or ungentle: rude hands.
5. roughly wrought, built, or formed; of a crude construction or kind: a rude cottage.
6. not properly or fully developed; raw; unevolved: a rude first stage of development.
7. harsh to the ear: rude sounds.
8. without artistic elegance; of a primitive simplicity: a rude design.
9. violent or tempestuous, as the waves.
10. robust, sturdy, or vigorous: rude strength.
11. approximate or tentative: a rude first calculation of costs.


If you take the time to read the definition of rude you will soon see that both the questioner and the respondent can both be termed rude.

Most of the welders of my age are not overly educated, we are roughly wrought, and our life has been spent dealing with #7 above.

Most apprentices are the poster child for #'s 2,6,8,. that is why they are apprentices they need to be educated, developed, and taught the manners of the trade.

Manners of the trade: one of the first lessons of safety I teach any apprentice is never ever try to catch a falling piece of steel. I do this with great force of voice and animation, with no regard for the feelings of the apprentice.


This business of welding is fought with danger. Is this danger impressed to the apprentice through soft hands and kind words? Or is it better to slap the back of the ignorant head, to let them know not to take ones eyes off the swinging load above.

I do believe in a time of softer communication, that time is predicated on the actions of the questioner, not the respondent.

Ask a stupid question, get a stupid response.