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  • #31
    Shucks FatFab,

    Sounds like we had the same "mentors".

    Guess that's the difference between old school/new school.

    Even though I've had substantial training in mathematics (through theoretical calculus), I never could grasp the "New Math". Where I came from, you had winners and losers.

    You didn't get a prize for being a loser.


    Heck, I've still got dents on the back of my head from "not paying close enough attention".
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    • #32
      The two schools of thought and behavior on forum civility expressed in this thread have pretty much established their positions at this point.

      It seems to me that those who take the position that they have a right to be rude and mean-spirited in their replies when they have evaluated a post to be lacking are hypocrites or are logically conflicted. To say that it's ok to behave that way in one breath and then to say those who incur expulsion from the forum for "crossing the line" deserve their fate in the next breath is either pure hypocrisy or a revelation about their illogical thought processes.

      Further, the defenders of rudeness and meanness appear to be motivated by a desire to control others in the worst and least effective way. How else can you explain their behavior? The fact that they respond with such scorn and meanness when they could have opted to just go on reading the next post is pretty good proof of this. The very process of posts and replies in a forum such as this will reveal the correct information without demeaning posters flaming on OP's and others. I for one hope that the forum manager uses, and not just threatens to use, posting privilege revocation as a means of eliminating this behavior.
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      • #33
        Anybody want to take bets on which "type" poster the new guy learns more from?

        The "nice, polite, smooth talker" who doesn't know his azz from a box of soda crackers, or the "gruff, direct, blunt" old timer who's already "been there/done that/got the t-shirt.
        Syncrowave 250 DX Tigrunner
        Dynasty 200 DX
        Miller XMT 304 w/714D Feeder & Optima Control
        Miller MM 251 w/Q300 & 30A SG
        Hobart HH187
        Dialarc 250 AC/DC
        Hypertherm PM 600 & 1250
        Wilton 7"x12" bandsaw
        PC Dry Cut Saw, Dewalt Chop Saw
        Milwaukee 8" Metal Cut Saw, Milwaukee Portaband.
        Thermco and Smith (2) Gas Mixers
        More grinders than hands

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        • #34
          Dammn,
          I can't go away on business for a week and the site falls back into the same pit.

          I understand totally and AGREE that there are guys that don't put any effort into their questions or research. And I understand some of your positions that they do not deserve getting any effort from you. A non response from you would be better. WE, Miller, have to be more politically correct and if there is a slight chance that this guy or anyone asking help will purchase something, it helps the industry. I don't like hand carrying these basic questions either but even though the info could have been found in similar threads, it does bring the topic up to the top and drives visibility. His particular circumstance may or may not be different than those in previous threads, but these guys still like to hear a specific recommendation to their issue from the experts here including you guys. Most of these guys are hobby welders anyway. They have an interest in it but may or may not make a career out of it.
          I am forced to run this site in a civil way. That doesn't mean our members can't disagree on things. It means we still need to do it in a manner that doesn't degrade anyone. We ALL just need to keep from giving into the urge to reprimand the OP for questions we feel are duplicates, stupid or not well thought out.

          I remember picking up a racing magazine the other month and seeing sections on degree-ing cams.... Well, sh1t, I've done that for 25 years and they seem to cover it every year or two! Doesn't mean a repeat of the info isn't valuable for the new guys.

          Let's take this one...
          Who is he going to learn more from???
          The "nice, polite, smooth talker" who doesn't know his azz from a box of soda crackers, or the "gruff, direct, blunt" old timer who's already "been there/done that/got the t-shirt.

          What a crock.
          What about the nice guy who KNOWS his AZZ from a box of soda.
          Are all us nice guys stupid??
          Why do you only have these two categories??

          Maybe you would like this instead-

          I put up a sticky folder for all NU BE questions.

          Any of you "gruff, direct, blunt" old timers who's already "been there/done that/got the t-shirt's don't EVER have to open and respond to it.

          If I see any smart azz comments there, your gone.

          Direct comments accepted but any bashing is out.


          Andy
          Last edited by ASKANDY; 08-27-2009, 02:48 PM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Dmaxer View Post
            It seems to me that those who take the position that they have a right to be rude and mean-spirited in their replies when they have evaluated a post to be lacking are hypocrites or are logically conflicted. To say that it's ok to behave that way in one breath and then to say those who incur expulsion from the forum for "crossing the line" deserve their fate in the next breath is either pure hypocrisy or a revelation about their illogical thought processes.
            dude that's so completely over-simplified. your line of reasoning assumes that miller has the exact same values as every individual on this board. and that there can never be a conflict of valid values. obviously, this isn't true.
            * member A "values" blunt honesty
            * miller "values" civility
            both of these can be argued to be values with merit. but such differing values can obviously conflict. so member A chastises a poster for asking a vague/infantile question, and then miller expels member A for not meeting civility standards. there is no hypocrisy or illogical thought process here-- everyone is just expressing their values (both of which have merit). and the chips fall where they may and everything settles into an equilibrium.

            1. the most uncivil people are expelled and do something else with their time
            2. the laziest people leave the board when they get tired of being chastised
            3. the board is as civil as miller wants it to be, depending on where they draw the line for expulsion

            if you go through life expecting everyone to have the same values, (or worse if you go through life never expecting negative consequences for the values you hold dear), then you are in for a confusing and difficult life.
            miller dynasty 350
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            • #36
              I'm not saying you can't have a difference of opinion or even the method at which you respond.

              If a beginner asks a question that is clearly stated in the manual and someone posts:

              Did you check you manual?

              or

              Did you bother checking your manual you fool before you wasted my precious time?

              There is a CLEAR difference here between being direct, gruff or condescending and demeaning.

              I don't expect anyone to flower anybody's nuts but they shouldn't cut them off either.

              A-

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              • #37
                Grand ideas Andy.

                I agree the notion of being disrespectful is out of line and it is you and Miller that will have established where that line of disrespect is.

                More flies with honey for sure, the point of this site is to promote and sell Miller as a brand and as a reliable product. I respect that and do feel it is in my best personal and business interest to see Miller thrive.


                I will continue to be direct and blunt, that is who I am.

                I do not see this as rude or insulting. If I am mistaken I have no doubt that Miller or Andy will feel so remorse showing me the door, as it should be, it is Millers sandbox after all.


                Thanks Andy.

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                • #38
                  Being the leader of a group of volunteers on Saturdays I can sure relate to the "catch more flies with honey" approach. Having worked under a boss years ago that could not understand this concept reinforces to me how important this approach is.
                  Doesn't mean everybody has to hold hands. I'm no fan of political correctness but, not having the advantage of seeing someones expression or body language makes being civil more important when typing on a keyboard. I like to save the "bustin' chops" for people I know well (so I know they will take it the right way)......when they are standing in front of me.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by pro70z28 View Post
                    Being the leader of a group of volunteers on Saturdays I can sure relate to the "catch more flies with honey" approach. Having worked under a boss years ago that could not understand this concept reinforces to me how important this approach is.
                    Doesn't mean everybody has to hold hands. I'm no fan of political correctness but, not having the advantage of seeing someones expression or body language makes being civil more important when typing on a keyboard. I like to save the "bustin' chops" for people I know well (so I know they will take it the right way)......when they are standing in front of me.
                    I wholeheartedly agree. Everyone who ever worked with or for me is still and always a valued friend. Well almost everyone...can't deal with thieves and liers.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by ASKANDY View Post
                      I'm not saying you can't have a difference of opinion or even the method at which you respond.

                      If a beginner asks a question that is clearly stated in the manual and someone posts:

                      Did you check you manual?

                      or

                      Did you bother checking your manual you fool before you wasted my precious time?

                      There is a CLEAR difference here between being direct, gruff or condescending and demeaning.

                      I don't expect anyone to flower anybody's nuts but they shouldn't cut them off either.

                      A-
                      The problem is its the same "group" of guys that do this over and over again.
                      They need to think we where all "welding challenged" at some time in our life.
                      Unless you came out of the womb with a torch in your hand?? I understand
                      it gets old seeing repeat after repeat of the same questions. Do what I do ignore them. Unless you feel you are lacking in other ways and the only way you can feel better about yourself is to attack someone else???????
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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by down19992000 View Post
                        The problem is its the same "group" of guys that do this over and over again.
                        They need to think we where all "welding challenged" at some time in our life.
                        Unless you came out of the womb with a torch in your hand?? I understand
                        it gets old seeing repeat after repeat of the same questions. Do what I do ignore them. Unless you feel you are lacking in other ways and the only way you can feel better about yourself is to attack someone else???????
                        So you take the head in the sand approach to dealing with things?

                        Where this "group" of guys sees an issue and deals with it head on.

                        I was 11 pounds at birth and 6 of that was my Victor torch.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Vicegrip View Post
                          I am glad I don't work where a guy risks a punch for asking a simple or stupid question. [/I]
                          I never said anyone risks getting decked for asking a question. Ask away. It's someone trying to be an A-hole that should get the rough treatment. I've trained my share of people in several lines of work and since I am back in college I'm teaching and training many more. The thing I always tell someone is the only truly stupid question is the one that's unasked. Granted there are folks everywhere that don't want to make an effort to truly learn something and they are really shortchanging themselves. How many years have you put into learning the right answers someone asks? Often (without trying to sound melodramatic) this knowledge is earned with sweat, blood, and a heck of alot of frustration. It has no true value to anyone that doesn't actually work their tail off to truly learn these things. That is perhaps why some questions get treated the way they do, you can tell when someone (generally) is blowing smoke and just wants to take his box store welder and build a skyscraper (just illustrating here). All knowledge is valuable to those who work and earn it. I've run completely over my train of thought right now. I'm not trying to get anyone P/O'd or anything. I understand dues have to be paid and many are wiling to pay them when the bill comes. Many just want the card and t shirt. Have a weekend folks I'm off to the lake some fish and a cool brew.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by down19992000
                            So what you are saying is if someone stopped by your business asking for directions to the interstate (which happened to be across the street from your place of business) would you scream and yell at them call them an idiot for asking a stupid question? Would you "punch" them in the mouth for not knowing something as basic as that. No I think you would not and dont tell me that its two different things it is not. If you are gonna be an a$$hat because you dont like the questions then thats your problem. There is a difference between calling it as you see it and being a prick. Just my humble opinion.
                            Black and white with you I see. One extreme to the other. You just want your way or none at all????


                            As to the lost sole I would point at the freeway and say "here's yer sign" and laugh.

                            We all ask the dumb questions, some are dumber than others.
                            Some just deserve a "here's yer sign" and some just need a raised eye brow. Some deserve much more. I am thinking you need more? Ill just add you to the Ignore list and not have to read your silliness any more.

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                            • #44
                              Suits me just fine... I know I am being silly asking you to have manners. I was raised with them obviously you were not..
                              hh 187.:
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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by ASKANDY View Post
                                Dammn,

                                I am forced to run this site in a civil way.

                                I remember picking up a racing magazine the other month and seeing sections on degree-ing cams.... Well, sh1t, I've done that for 25 years and they seem to cover it every year or two! Doesn't mean a repeat of the info isn't valuable for the new guys.




                                Andy
                                This is the bossman...myself and others could have been banned from here many times over,but we were not.Why...because Andy has the skin of an alligator and want he dosen't care for just rolls off his back..why???...because as stated he has been around the block for the last 25 years.However because he has to babysit us, he has to speak for the "hobby welders'' that aren't subject to the ''dog eat dog'' mentallity of industry.Not everyone has the skin of an alligator....these are who Andy is speaking for....it's his job.
                                ''True genius,in many fields of human endeaver,is often revealed in elegant simplicity"

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