The End Is Near !!

[cruizer]

How much can you possibly owe anyways? Company wise, not household.

[Bodybagger]

All you can do is cut expenses everywhere you see them.

I have started to put a motorcycle to work doing estimates and light duty work (ie port-a-torch). At 70-75MPG avg, the fuel savings are phenomenal.

You just have to learn how to pack light.

[mulugod]

I'm just a fledgling welder

I just wanted to say that tho things may seem dark you all have a wonderful skill that you can be proud of !!!
What I would give to be able to say my skills were adequate to even establish a business.
Have you thought of actually taking students in for welding classes? I am sure there are guys who would really appreciate good experienced instruction ! I am one of them!
The community college here(Bremerton,Washington) is completely backed up with students wanting welding certs.
It seems you could establish a clientel. The college is VERY expensive and some might appreciate getting their feet wet before investing in expensive college classes. I am sure you could charge a reasonable fee for instruction and still be way more affordable than the college!!

In fact,,if there ARE any welders in the Bremerton area that would like a student,,I will gladly fork up some $ for good instruction!

Well, again, sorry to hear the woes upon you ,, you have a marvelous and useful skill to pass on to others as well as maintain a private business.
Good Luck Pal!! Keep the Faith!

[nfinch86]

Sad Times

How much can you possibly owe anyways? Company wise, not household.

Cruizer Hi;

Well I have ( had ) a line of credit for $20,000. plus a few credit cards for another $15,000. , So lets $35- $40,000. total debts !!

............ Norm

[nfinch86]

I just wanted to say that tho things may seem dark you all have a wonderful skill that you can be proud of !!!
What I would give to be able to say my skills were adequate to even establish a business.
Have you thought of actually taking students in for welding classes? I am sure there are guys who would really appreciate good experienced instruction ! I am one of them!
The community college here(Bremerton,Washington) is completely backed up with students wanting welding certs.
It seems you could establish a clientel. The college is VERY expensive and some might appreciate getting their feet wet before investing in expensive college classes. I am sure you could charge a reasonable fee for instruction and still be way more affordable than the college!!

In fact,,if there ARE any welders in the Bremerton area that would like a student,,I will gladly fork up some $ for good instruction!

Well, again, sorry to hear the woes upon you ,, you have a marvelous and useful skill to pass on to others as well as maintain a private business.
Good Luck Pal!! Keep the Faith!

Mulu, Thanks for your kind words.
I never thought about teaching or instruction before. That might be something to think about ? As I've been in and around the Welding Industry
for All of My adult life , Five Decades- just starting My 43 third year !!

Thanks Again; ........... Norm :

[fjk]

Frank Hi; I hear ya, Thankyou for your words !!

No matter which way I go It'll be the Saddest Day I of my life , To lose My Business or My house ! Right now I am so full of despair, I almost can't function !!

Hi Norm

It may not feel this way to you - but you seem to be not bad shape.
You own your house outright, which means no mortgage/rent payments
there. Your wife has a steady and presumably fairly reliable income.
It may be enough for you two to at least keep food on the table and
the lights on at night. No 'round the world cruises in the foreseeable
future -- but you won't starve either...
It sounds to me that you two are old enough
that you don't have children still living with and dependent on you.
And living in Canada, you do get gov't provided medical care
(regardless of whether one believes in gov't medical care or not,
in _your_ case right now, it's A Very Very Good Thing)

Keeping your business, as it is, is a gamble - even with an infusion
of new money by mortgaging your home. If you lose the gamble,
you lose the business _and_ the home. Even if you win, the
business may come back, but the additional debt might make
it real hard to keep up on the payments.
Keeping your home is about a certainty, as long you don't
gamble it. Your business may or may not survive -- but you'll
have a roof over your head and still have food on the table.

The one unknown is the debt you mentioned ($40k?). My (non-lawyerly)
understanding of how it works here in the US is that if that's
in the business' name, and you are not personally liable (legally)
then it's not too bad -- the banks can take the business, but
probably not your home. If you personally are liable, then
they can go after anything of yours to settle the loan
(including your house) which means that and getting a mortgage
on the house might not be possible anyway... And the
Canadian laws are, I'm very sure, different from things
down here in the US. I (and the others here!) are not lawyers
or bankers - so you probably should do a bit of research
up there yourself.

As to working for a living ... I think everyone here hears you.
But sometimes necessity outweighs pride. Is there any part time
work available up there? Believe it or not, down here I always
see help-wanted signs at fast food places, etc. It may not
be "a living" but it might be enough to keep the business
from failing -- and when things turn around, you can go back
to welding full time.

Good Luck

frank

[Railmen]

No end..............

NORM keep your head up buddy, it will come around.

Are you in still good standing with your Local Union??

If so, i know you are older but if you are still in good standing call around to other halls and look for a SHUT DOWN.............. i hear they are still looking for guys for the Bruce Nuc.(personal i will never work they unless i get really down)

I will ask around the hall tomorrow.....

was you in Local 700??

Keep your head buddy...

Ty

P.S. any time you need to talk give me a call or email...

[bulldogsowner]

F.A.I.T.H. and S.C.O.R.E.

Norm, very sorry to hear of your situation. Here in the states we have this program known as S.C.O.R.E., you can google search it, these guy'z helped me with both of my businesses. And it's FREE!!! They are all retired executives who volunteer, decades and decades of knowledge for people like your self for free. I see your not located in the states, but still worth checking out. Teaching at a local vocational school, or tech school is another option, hey maybe if you really have that drive, start your own night classes, get certified or licenced to instruct, and when you make your first million or two, you can thank me!!! Maybe it's a good time to think about FAITH, if you have not already, the POWER OF PRAYER, saved my life, and many others on this forum, I quarantee it, GOD bless you brother, Ralph

[Johnny]

Don't touch the equity/value in your home. Pray and pray.

This economic pickle we are in may take a too long to get resolved. Cut your losses.

I hope I didn't completely overlook vital information and post useless thoughts.

Still, pray.

[Railmen]

I know they are putting up a new building at the salt mine starting tomorrow good for about 1-1 1/2 months

A buddy of mine just got the call on Friday he's a OE

Ty

[acwd1950]

Norm,
I am sorry to hear that is bad for ya. I agree with everyone dont mortgage the house. This is what I do, if thing are slow in the welding department I do other jobs for money. I have been baling hay and helping a customer on his farm part of the time and my Dad in his shop working on things. There is work out there if you know where to find it. If you have to get out and take a drive around and stop at businesses that you think might need some welding done now or in the future and give them a business card. Do this in neighboring towns and dont miss the big businesses and factories. Make up some fliers to hang in gas stations and restaurants. Even give those ppl a few minutes of your time and a business card. This will also give you a break from some of your troubles and clear your mind. If all else fails have a cup of Tims coffee and a cuban cigar and think of all the good things you have in life! Hang in there it will get better.

Steve

[cruizer]

Whats the morgage rate right now, 2 -3%, something around that, whats your line of credit%, let alone your credit cards. Way easier to consolidate your debts into an easy to pay low interest amount.

You could go bankrupt too, but that isn't free any more, your still have to liquidate and payout for 2 years. Besides your credit is destroyed.

[FusionManiac]

Have you considered applying for a bailout? I hear they are becoming fairly common lately.

Seriously though, your original posting doesn't say much about what kind of expenses you are trying to cover. If the house is paid for and the equipment is paid for, do you have a building that you owe on? How big are the expenses you are trying to cover? Do you have employees that you are trying to keep?

My point is that sometimes you have to take the problem apart and try to work on just the hiccups instead of trying to tackle the whole thing at once.

On the other side of the issue is the effort you are making at getting more work. Do you do the kind of work the might be helped with some marketing? What about beating the bushes? Do you know any other welders in your area well enought to see if they have any extra work to share? Sometimes it only take a little from here and a little from there to keep things upright till the storm is over.

If it's any solace, it sounds like the general economy is at least approaching a point of stability where things may not get any worse from here. We may not see a quick rebound (make that WILL NOT see a quick rebound), but at least there is the potential for things to not get a lot worse.

I know it's probably not the first choice, but what about something temporary to fill the gap? Second job outside of welding. The part time instructor gig is another good contrarian play since the community colleges are plugged with welder-wanna-be's. Sometimes the best approach is to get real creative and (hate to use the phrase) "think outside the box". Basically what that means is that you don't keep using the same approach as in the past, but instead look at things that you might have never considered before.

One thing is for sure, the economy will recover because people will live through it and will still need most of what they always have needed and that includes a good welder. Try to see it as an opportunity. Think about all of those days in the past when you were buried in work and were wishing for something else to do. I know that I've been there. It may be that now you have the time to strike out in some other direction.

Keep up the dialogue here though and we can at least offer moral support. Best of luck to you.

[JSFAB]

Finch, tough love here.

Where's your bills coming from???? Are they business bills??? From a SINGLE owner-operator???? If you can't make enough, to pay the business bills, working on your own, you are obviously a lousy businessman. Sell everything, get a job. $40,000 of debt,,,,, didn't happen overnight. Don't blame the recession. You are either not charging enough, not compentent enough to charge enough, or not able to keep the best costomers and the best jobs. Whatever,,,, doesn't really matter, if you can't work one hour, and bring in more money than it costs you to work that hour, both fixed costs and variable costs, it's not a viable business.

Are they PERSONAL bills???? Then obviously you have a problem living within your means. Your wife is a pensioner??? I assume, if you live cheap enough, you can live on her pension, given a paid-for house?????

The worst thing a guy can do, starting off a business,,,, especially if he has no business sense, is get a line of credit. Easy money, too easy,,,,, Then all of a sudden, the debt load becomes a problem, then it's too late.

The second worst thing a guy can do, either starting a business or trying to keep a business going, is to gamble the house. My house is where I live; it's not a piggy bank, and not a source of money. Yes, I have refinanced,,,,, the bankers want to use a big scoop to shovel more money to me; I simply wanted the lower interest rate. NO EXTRA MONEY!!!!!! A good reason why, I still have my house,,,,,, quite a few of my ex-neighbors, have nice "trick" 4x4's,,,, nice boats, etc., but no house.

If the business is failing anyway,,,,, re-mortgaging the house will only delay that; 90% of the time the proprietor looses both the business AND the house. Remember, Finch,,,,, you also have a responsibility to your wife. She worked hard, I assume,,,, has the pension, possibly can live fairly well, assuming a fully paid-for house. You gonna take that away from the poor gal???? How far will the pension go, if she also has to pay rent?????? Huh??? Just for the sake of delaying the inevitable?????

As far as the suggestions for "incorporating" ,,,, and thus, supposedly being able to walk away from your debts scot free ,,,,,, that's a frigging cop-out. All you do, is stick the loss with somebody like me. Another small businessman,,,, a REAL businessman, who can still support himself and pay his bills, recession or not. You think I want, in these days of less work, and lower margins, Finche's unpaid bills?????

In any case,,,, if you incorporate, and want to get either bank credit, or trade credit,,,, any small, recent corporation, the creditors will generally require the owners/officers of the new corporation, to pledge personal responsibility for any debts.

Finch,,,, if you truly do have "43 years of experience",,,,, Maybe it's time to start winding it down. You gotta be what, well into your 60's by now????Just sell off, pay the bills, keep the bare basics for your own projects, and what you want to do for friends. And what did you really learn, over 43 years???? How to run a bead???? You can be able to run the best bead possible,,,, that is NOT a qualification, for being able to successfully running a business. More to it than that. Why piss away, your golden years???? Why ruin your wife's golden years?????

Not putting you down at all Finch,,, just trying to help you face reality. "Credit" is a valuable business tool, especially for a young guy, that has a vision, has a plan, wants to go places. I used in myself, in years past,,,,, but no way, nohow, at this stage of my life, would I ever consider, getting a line of credit, to cover normal business expenses,,, or remortgaging my house, to also cover normal business expenses. A 65 year old guy, trying to keep a crap business going, by sticking his neck out further,,,,,, is beyond stupid.

Again, tough love,,,,, I've seen it all. I can right now, think, of at least five, ex-millionaire business owners, that I personally know, happy today, for their social security check, because they refused to face reality.

Think about it a little, Finch. Think really hard.

[Railmen]

Finch, tough love here.

Where's your bills coming from???? Are they business bills??? From a SINGLE owner-operator???? If you can't make enough, to pay the business bills, working on your own, you are obviously a lousy businessman. Sell everything, get a job. $40,000 of debt,,,,, didn't happen overnight. Don't blame the recession. You are either not charging enough, not compentent enough to charge enough, or not able to keep the best costomers and the best jobs. Whatever,,,, doesn't really matter, if you can't work one hour, and bring in more money than it costs you to work that hour, both fixed costs and variable costs, it's not a viable business.

Are they PERSONAL bills???? Then obviously you have a problem living within your means. Your wife is a pensioner??? I assume, if you live cheap enough, you can live on her pension, given a paid-for house?????

The worst thing a guy can do, starting off a business,,,, especially if he has no business sense, is get a line of credit. Easy money, too easy,,,,, Then all of a sudden, the debt load becomes a problem, then it's too late.

The second worst thing a guy can do, either starting a business or trying to keep a business going, is to gamble the house. My house is where I live; it's not a piggy bank, and not a source of money. Yes, I have refinanced,,,,, the bankers want to use a big scoop to shovel more money to me; I simply wanted the lower interest rate. NO EXTRA MONEY!!!!!! A good reason why, I still have my house,,,,,, quite a few of my ex-neighbors, have nice "trick" 4x4's,,,, nice boats, etc., but no house.

If the business is failing anyway,,,,, re-mortgaging the house will only delay that; 90% of the time the proprietor looses both the business AND the house. Remember, Finch,,,,, you also have a responsibility to your wife. She worked hard, I assume,,,, has the pension, possibly can live fairly well, assuming a fully paid-for house. You gonna take that away from the poor gal???? How far will the pension go, if she also has to pay rent?????? Huh??? Just for the sake of delaying the inevitable?????

As far as the suggestions for "incorporating" ,,,, and thus, supposedly being able to walk away from your debts scot free ,,,,,, that's a frigging cop-out. All you do, is stick the loss with somebody like me. Another small businessman,,,, a REAL businessman, who can still support himself and pay his bills, recession or not. You think I want, in these days of less work, and lower margins, Finche's unpaid bills?????

In any case,,,, if you incorporate, and want to get either bank credit, or trade credit,,,, any small, recent corporation, the creditors will generally require the owners/officers of the new corporation, to pledge personal responsibility for any debts.

Finch,,,, if you truly do have "43 years of experience",,,,, Maybe it's time to start winding it down. You gotta be what, well into your 60's by now????Just sell off, pay the bills, keep the bare basics for your own projects, and what you want to do for friends. And what did you really learn, over 43 years???? How to run a bead???? You can be able to run the best bead possible,,,, that is NOT a qualification, for being able to successfully running a business. More to it than that. Why piss away, your golden years???? Why ruin your wife's golden years?????

Not putting you down at all Finch,,, just trying to help you face reality. "Credit" is a valuable business tool, especially for a young guy, that has a vision, has a plan, wants to go places. I used in myself, in years past,,,,, but no way, nohow, at this stage of my life, would I ever consider, getting a line of credit, to cover normal business expenses,,, or remortgaging my house, to also cover normal business expenses. A 65 year old guy, trying to keep a crap business going, by sticking his neck out further,,,,,, is beyond stupid.

Again, tough love,,,,, I've seen it all. I can right now, think, of at least five, ex-millionaire business owners, that I personally know, happy today, for their social security check, because they refused to face reality.

Think about it a little, Finch. Think really hard.

Holly OUCH kick the man some more we'll he's down........

you may have some valid points but come on.......

Railmen