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  • #16
    excellent question Maineiac,

    stick electrode still dominates the industry around the world.

    With the advances in chemistry however it is not difficult to have a continuous electrode (wire) that matches or exceeds the properties of a noncontinuous wire (stick) remember that the wires are coming from the same place and then being drawn differently. They both start out as green rod and then are processed to meet their needs. The difference often being the diameter and the surface condition. A stick electrode gets a cellulose coating and a MIG wire gets a copper coating typically unless it is a bare wire. Yes the chemistry's are different in their alloying elements when you get into the higher tensile wires. So I won't say a wire is a wire is a wire, but it can be close. Then we can discuss flux cored wires and the ability to make whatever you want as long as you want 5,000 pounds of it (usually the minimum order for something special)

    Yes there are seismic wires for wire feed welding either flux cored, metal cored or solid wires. As pointed out previously sometimes it really comes down to how good the guy is laying the bead.

    We also run into code restrictions where wire feed welding is not an accepted practice. To that let me just say that I have sat in on code meetings and when it takes a 2 hour discussion and then a 6 month research project by 6 people to determine if a comma should be used, it does not surprise me at all that it is going to take a very long time to get the code committees to write it in.

    Some of my peers here have recently demonstrated advanced process welding to a state DOT board who were skeptical about pulsed welding. Keep in mind these people are some of the best and brightest in civil and mechanical engineering but their exposure to welding and I mean really getting into it and understanding it was a survey class when they were freshmen in college. Their typical experience with welding was with short circuit welding and seeing the quality they could do and then some professor who remembers General Washington says stick is the way to go. I am not at all trying to belittle them or make fun of them but only to illustrate where they are in the advancements of welding. For them their time is spent doing a lot of other design and evaluation processes and when it comes to welding good enough has been good enough for a long time. They are however looking around now to see what can be done as companies push the newer technologies in welding so they can be faster and less expensive. For years and years stick welding has been the process of choice in my opinion as a legacy to someone way back when, when they needed a process better and faster than riveting. At that time stick welding was the process of choice due to ease of use compared to MIG back then and mobility. We all know what it takes to run a stinger out to a project or to try to run a wire feeder out there, pushing a Millermatic 350P across a dirt yard isn't easy. With the application of the suitcase feeder and self shielded wire, now the gloves come off between wire and stick.

    Don't get me wrong, I think stick will be around for a long, long time. As well it should be. There are no silver bullets for anything, but a good welder with a good process can over come a lot, mostly because his pride won't let him back down.

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    • #17
      "Beveled Steel, or Develed Eggs"

      Originally posted by Steve View Post
      I don't bevel 1/4. See above post of 3/4 2 pass weld.

      Steve: Yes I did, and yes I have. My posts speak in reference to those who are "learning" the skill. Many readers and contributors have used nothing more than a 180 short circuit MIG, and .035 wire.

      Many of the fundamental basics are overlooked due to the convenient nature of "out-of-the-box," "ready-to-weld," all in one machines.

      Pre heat and interpass tempatures, cold temperature welding, bottom beam flange-to-column, and multi-pass welds will rarely be performed by the majority of the Forum members.

      Pursuant to these issues, my intentions and contributions address those most likely to meet that criteria in an understandable conversation.

      Dave
      "Bonne journe'e mes amis"

      Comment


      • #18
        Information +++ !!

        Originally posted by davedarragh View Post
        Steve: Yes I did, and yes I have. My posts speak in reference to those who are "learning" the skill. Many readers and contributors have used nothing more than a 180 short circuit MIG, and .035 wire.

        Many of the fundamental basics are overlooked due to the convenient nature of "out-of-the-box," "ready-to-weld," all in one machines.

        Pre heat and interpass tempatures, cold temperature welding, bottom beam flange-to-column, and multi-pass welds will rarely be performed by the majority of the Forum members.

        Pursuant to these issues, my intentions and contributions address those most likely to meet that criteria in an understandable conversation.

        Dave
        Dave Hi; For this Weldor of Four Decades, Thanks !!

        Dave you are the Most informed member I know of on this or Any Forum !

        .................. Norm
        www.normsmobilewelding.blogspot.com

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        • #19
          Stronger Weld

          I have too disagree with some of what has been said.

          MIG wire (Solid GMAW wire) is exactly the same wire as TIG wire which makes some of the best welds in any industry (Don't believe me go check your spool of hardwire). ASME 31.1 doesn't allow stick roots because they have to much hydrogen in them (causes Hydrogen Embrittlement & cracking).

          Basically you have TIG wire in an semi automated process with less Hydrogen than the TIG process (It can be the cleanest process by reducing Hydrogen).

          Three problems with MIG guys aren't trained properly (Bad Technique and Usually run too cold), the process requires gas shielding that isn't suitable for some field applications and lastly the MIG process is so fast compared to SMAW without proper pre-heat post heat welds can become quenched due to low heat input and high travel speeds and crack.

          MIG can and should be equal or stronger than comparable SMAW process if setup properly.
          Bobcat 225
          The rest is bright RED "Tig & GMAW"
          Just got a new Hypertherm 30

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          • #20
            Originally posted by davedarragh View Post
            Sheet metal is material up to and including 3/16"
            Depends who you talk to. When i was a Union Sheetmetal worker FCAW welding 3" thick plate it was considered sheetmetal by the business agent...Bob
            Bob Wright

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            • #21
              Sheet metal is not read in inches. Sheet metal is by gauge. And as for 1/4 steel, don't bevel but keep 1/8 in apart. Tack to keep in place and run the gap. Flip over, grind a tish and run the gap. Flat grind to remove all traces ya ever been there.
              Last edited by Steve; 06-17-2010, 09:20 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by aametalmaster View Post
                Depends who you talk to. When i was a Union Sheetmetal worker FCAW welding 3" thick plate it was considered sheetmetal by the business agent...Bob
                Dave is right. 3" plate being called sheet is like a cylinder of oxygen being called a bottle of air. people might get what you are saying but it's not right.

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                • #23
                  So is mig tougher than stick or is it the other way around. Comparably speaking same if welded in the parameters and rod / stick spec out the same.
                  As for mig the ball is 7 in dia. It is attached to 3 in plate that I welded to a 2 in plate. It goes between the trailer and the truck. This one is ambling along about 40 MPH carrying 45 cu/yd of product at 3klb per yard. So lets see thats 135,000 lbs, less the trailer. Migged it. Wanna try?
                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by Steve; 06-17-2010, 09:50 PM.

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                  • #24
                    in the quarries in arkansas, if you show up to work with a feeder, they will kindly let you drive right back out the gates. a 17k pound bowl and mantle in a 5484 cone crusher... 8 inches thick at the weldments... back gouge with CAC and fill er up. 1/4 inch 8018 with 11018 cap...... too much room for the "brittleness" and cold laps that solid wire mig bring when welding something that big...

                    on another note, i welded cooler fins on a drum ( http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...ad.php?t=21710 ) and was asked to use solid wire mig.... *shrugs*

                    i myself prefer SMAW if i have to stand on it 50 foot in the air after it's welded... and wire for cattle gates
                    welder_one

                    nothing fancy, just a few hot glue guns for metal
                    www.sicfabrications.com

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                    • #25
                      I agree. I welded the ball in the shop. 75/25 and .045 wire. I could not use this process in the field without wind shelter. But trust me with a 600amp 100% duty cycle welder you wont have cold laps. Just as in stick you will get cold laps if your heat ain't right. I use stick in the field. I would weld it. And you would like it. They would to. Use the right process for the purpose. I see ya did. Great everybodies happy right.

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                      • #26
                        Besides my 135klbs @ 40mph beats your 17klbs @8in. Oh and the trailer is another 30k at min.

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                        • #27
                          stick vs wire

                          70xx can refer to 7018 or e70s hard wire.. both are compatible. both have a yield of over 70k psi tensile. and 23% elongation.. Some flux core wires depending on the type of sheild gas used can range form 80 to 98k.. Last week I was welding on a drill head for a guy I used some 11018 and preheat of 400 Degrease but it didnt have impact numbers that were needed so I covered with supermissle rod which has a tensile streingth of 120K psi..
                          your typical A36 steel you buy at your local supplier generally has a tensile of 56000#s. depending on asw code used and the weld procedure of that particular job. That determines what process and filler used.
                          trailblazer 280 nt with 3000 hrs and running strong
                          today I bought a new trailblazer 302
                          and a new s-32p

                          dynasty 200 dx
                          maxstar 140
                          passport
                          XR pushpull
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                          cutmaster 50

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Steve View Post
                            Besides my 135klbs @ 40mph beats your 17klbs @8in. Oh and the trailer is another 30k at min.
                            too funny! ive spent my fair share welding dozer blades back together and the draw bar pivot bals (the correct spelling got censored) on the older crawlers as well.... i do agree, if the weldor and the welder is up to par, either process is alright. and i also agree with a previous post that stated that alot of peeps are spooky of running hot enough. turn it up and burn it in
                            welder_one

                            nothing fancy, just a few hot glue guns for metal
                            www.sicfabrications.com

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                            • #29
                              Gauge

                              Originally posted by Steve View Post
                              Sheet metal is not read in inches. Sheet metal is by gauge. And as for 1/4 steel, don't bevel but keep 1/8 in apart. Tack to keep in place and run the gap. Flip over, grind a tish and run the gap. Flat grind to remove all traces ya ever been there.
                              7/0 gauge .500"
                              3 gauge .250"
                              7 gauge .1875"= 3/16"
                              44 gauge .0047"
                              Established by Congress 1893
                              One year before my Grandfather was born.
                              Bob
                              Millermatic 252 w/30A
                              Big Blue Air Pak
                              Ellis 3000 Band Saw
                              Trailblazer 302 Air Pak w/ Wireless Remote
                              8-RC
                              Dynasty 200 DX
                              XMT 350 MPa w/S-74 MPa Plus
                              Millermatic 211
                              Passport Plus
                              Spectrum 625 X-TREME
                              Lincoln SA-200 Blue Tint Red Face '63
                              2-Lincoln SA-200 Red Face '68
                              SA-200 Black Face '59
                              SA-200 Green Lite '84
                              SA-200 Green Lite '80
                              SA-200 Red Face '69
                              SA-200 Red Face '66
                              SA-200 Green Lite '81
                              '70 Black Face Round Barrel

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Maineiac View Post
                                I have been away from welding school a very long time ago. And welding procedures have changed alot through the years,I am assuming.
                                Welding 1/4, 3/8, or 1/2 inch steel using MIG. Can it be as strong as stick
                                welding? I know how to do both. But most of the welding that I have done while I was working was stick. And I have never had any come back because of poor welding. So as you can see, I have a large amount of faith in stick welding. If mig welding laid properly, is it as good or better than stick welding? I have just purchase a Millermatic 211 but that was mostly for thin steel and also aluminum. I have always enjoyed stick welding better, but if mig welding is as strong I will be doing alot more of it.Would love to hear from you gents or ladies. Thanks
                                Hi Maineiac, To answer you question in short. The only time I use stick it's if it's outside, other then that I use mig process " t-91 blueshield, aka gas shielded fluxcore wire " for any high stress application possible,
                                """ for speed , you know, time is money "" and I've had never had a job comeback to the shop for a crack problem. For what it's worth, I welded a 2 7/16 " cylinder rod eye with t-91 on a bunsher boom and it never came back for repair.

                                For what it's worth globular transfer "" just before spray transfer "" will gets you the best penetration.

                                Like welder_one mention turn it up and burn it in.

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