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  • Sync 200 - Orange Arc and burning up tungstens??

    I'm stumped on this one, there's a sync 200 machine at my buddies work and he's been asking me for some welding tips and to show him how after many failed tries on his own.

    Well, i've been over there twice now and using their hood and machine tried laying some beads on 1/4 inch AL plate. Well the thing just doesn't want to weld, it's burned back 1/16th tungs like they were butter and had the cup glowing red hot within just a few seconds.

    After taking it all apart I changed to a 3/32 tungsten and found that he was using the wrong collet body on the 1/16th (had a 3/32 in there but i've done that before in a hurry)

    Anyway, I played with the balance but it reads different than my dynasty so i played with it at both ends of the scale and ended up at 7.0 ( thinking that would = 70% on my dynasty)

    After I got all the right parts in the torch, and played with getting the settings right i was able to lay a bead but there was still 2 things that were very weird,

    1.)The arc was orange (could it be their mask? I still was a green tinted lense)

    2.) With pure positive that the tung NEVER Touched the work or the filler rod, now and then it would "spit" something onto the workpiece that would act like dipping the tungsten in the puddle and throw black soot. Then it would pick back up and go again and run clean until the next spit.

    I ended up being able to lay consistant beads with it before i left, but felt too un-comfortable with the machine to do the repair they asked me to do with it, so i brought it home to use the 200dx and it welded like it always does

    Also, why would it be burning the tungsten back that bad and is the scale on the 200sync for balance like the dynasty (i.e. higher number = more penetration...lower = more cleaning?)

    I've used many sync 250's in my day, but never seen an orange arc and this much trouble laying a bead...gotta figure this one out for my buddy so he will stop getting so frustrated in his learnign curve of TIG welding
    Dynasty 200DX
    Hobart Handler 135
    Smith MB55A-510 O/A setup
    Lathe/Mill/Bandsaw
    Hypertherm Powermax 45
    Just about every other hand tool you can imagine

  • #2
    Gas flow??

    Type of gas?

    Are the leads reversed?
    Dynasty 200 DX
    Millermatic 175
    Spectrum 375
    All kinds of Smith OA gear

    Comment


    • #3
      "Going Green"

      Turbo: Trying to follow your many questions, so I'll answer with some questions.

      1.) A standard GREEN welding lens gives an orange arc view. (The Lincoln lenses are REALLY orange) I like them better than auto shades. I can see the weld pool better. I only use auto shades for repetitive tacks or short (up to 2") welds. Give me a pipeliner or pancake hood any day for burning rods and wire all day long.

      2.) 1/4" alum is too much for a Sync 200. (260-340 amps) 1/8 is about it's limit, maybe 3/16 depending on joint design. (125-160)

      3.) Balance at "7" is a good start, it gives 43% pos and 57% neg for (cleaning vs penetration)

      4.) there is a pulser setting for PEAKt and BKGND A that defaults to 50/50

      Now, the questions:

      5.) What was your ampereage? What type of tungsten? Did you have it on AC? Did you have the proper gas, and flow rate?

      6.) Sounds to me like somebody needs to reset everything to factory default settings, and adjust in sequence from there.

      7.) Settings for 1/8" butt alum is as follows:

      3/32 tungsten (and collet, collet body)

      3/8 - 7/16 cup

      3/32 or 1/8 rod (4043)

      AC Current

      125-145 amps

      100% Argon @ 17 cfh/20 psi

      12 1n/min travel speed.

      I've used pure and 2% Ceriated for aluminum

      With pure, ball the end, Ceriated, sharpened

      You're used to the inverter Dynasty as compared to the Squarewave Syncro
      Last edited by davedarragh; 06-03-2009, 04:43 AM.
      "Bonne journe'e mes amis"

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by davedarragh View Post
        2.) 1/4" alum is too much for a Sync 200. (260-340 amps) 1/8 is about it's limit, maybe 3/16 depending on joint design. (125-160)

        I disagree! The Sync 200 is rated for 1/4" aluminum and I do that and 3/8" with mine without any problems.
        Miller Syncrowave 200
        Homemade Water Cooler
        130XP MIG
        Spectrum 375
        60 year old Logan Lathe
        Select Machine and Tool Mill
        More stuff than I can keep track of..

        Comment


        • #5
          did you check to make shore all the leads were tight inside the din's and the ground clamps ? dont rely on the factory to send it out tight.
          thanks for the help
          ......or..........
          hope i helped
          sigpic
          feel free to shoot me an e-mail direct i have time to chat. [email protected]
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          JAMES

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by davedarragh View Post
            Now, the questions:

            5.) What was your ampereage? What type of tungsten? Did you have it on AC? Did you have the proper gas, and flow rate?

            6.) Sounds to me like somebody needs to reset everything to factory default settings, and adjust in sequence from there.

            7.) Settings for 1/8" butt alum is as follows:

            3/32 tungsten (and collet, collet body)

            3/8 - 7/16 cup

            3/32 or 1/8 rod (4043)

            AC Current

            125-145 amps

            100% Argon @ 17 cfh/20 psi

            12 1n/min travel speed.

            I've used pure and 2% Ceriated for aluminum

            With pure, ball the end, Ceriated, sharpened

            You're used to the inverter Dynasty as compared to the Squarewave Syncro
            It was on AC at 175 and 200 amps being tried with pure argon (tried 15 and 20 on the flow) , 2% thoriated tungsten, #8 cup ... All i was trying to do was lay a bead period not pure fusion or mating any parts. ALl the machine has ever done for anyone at that shop is melt globs of filler ontop of the metal like solder drippings. I got a few nice beads by the time i was done and had to leave, but no one could repeat it after i left. The machine seems to give off very little argon at the torch, the bottle was full and the regulator showed read both 15 and 20cfph that we tried respectively. I was mainly puzzled to the orange arc, but maybe it was the mask.. No one else can weld with it and it's never laid an AC bead in it's life until i started getting my buddy interested in firing it up after he got good at MIG.

            There's definitely an issue because i've welded on all types of miller machines, and for many years borrowed use of a sync 250 (older one) to do all my TIG work, the dynasty was my first inverter use period, so there shoudln't have been that much trouble going back to the weld of a transformer machine.. PLus the cup and workpiece are "sooting up" with both black and white films..black when it drops whatever it's dropping into the weld (moisture in the lines maybe?) and then there's white as if you didn't have any or enough gas (like i said, the flow from post flow feel really weak compared to other TIG's i've played with.

            Originally posted by fun4now View Post
            did you check to make shore all the leads were tight inside the din's and the ground clamps ? dont rely on the factory to send it out tight.
            I checked that they were tight, but i did not check to see if the wrong one was plugged into tthe wrong outlet *smacks self on head* BUt being that i was in AC i didn't think much of it, but to be honest it seemed like the machine was operating in DCEP ( or reverse polarity ) because of the way it burned up tungsten and had the cup glowing at the end of 15-20 seconds of 200 amp power
            Dynasty 200DX
            Hobart Handler 135
            Smith MB55A-510 O/A setup
            Lathe/Mill/Bandsaw
            Hypertherm Powermax 45
            Just about every other hand tool you can imagine

            Comment


            • #7
              It could be spitting tungsten? Maybe? Ive had that happen and thats what it was acting like. Did you try it with no cleaning action or very little? Im not familiar with those machines so Im just throwing out things out there that come to mind.

              Steve
              Dont force it, use a BIGGER hammer.

              Linde VI-252C and Linde wire feeder.
              Hobart Cyberwave 300c.
              HH 140.
              Miller Big 40.
              Lincoln SAE 200J.
              Hobart GR-303.
              Lincoln tombstone welder.
              TD Cutmaster 52.
              Hobart Stickmate.
              Miller 211 w/ Spoolgun.
              Lincoln SA 200.

              Comment


              • #8
                15 to 20 seconds at 200 amps on a #17, 150 amp air cooled torch might be an issue. That might also be the upper end for an air cooled 3/32 tungsten. I used a 1/8" pure, in a water cooled torch (#18?, not the smaller #20), in class, from January to May. Welding .060 to 1/8" thick.

                I had a problem with shielding with too much stickout. What had worked well on MS, was too much for alum. (#8 cup) With my Sync 250, the oxide cleaning zone won't work, the surface will pepper and sink. Any time I had trouble, I'd just try to 'clean and puddle' a bare spot. If it wouldn't work, my shielding/stickout was usually the issue. This includes the filler turning to ash instead of melting cleanly.

                The older Sync 250's are marked 0-10 cleaning/penetration, and are AC balanced at 2 1/2 to 3 1/2.

                Take the collett body out and 'look thru the holes'.
                Last edited by Craig in Denver; 06-02-2009, 09:02 PM.
                RETIRED desk jockey.

                Hobby weldor with a little training.

                Craftsman O/A---Flat, Vert, Ovhd, Horz.

                Miller Syncrowave 250.
                sigpic

                Comment


                • #9
                  Turboglen,

                  Definitely a gas issue. Not getting proper gas to the torch. Probably a pinhole leak in the gas line.

                  Try another torch on the machine.

                  Find a smoker nearby. Have him light up. The torch in postflow should blow the smoke around. If it doesn't, then there's your problem.

                  Just the other night I was welding at the bench. Moved around to get a better view of the part. Dropped the pedal. Bam. Smoked the tungsten. Looked down and one leg of my stool was sitting on the gas line. Moved stool. Back to normal.
                  Syncrowave 250 DX Tigrunner
                  Dynasty 200 DX
                  Miller XMT 304 w/714D Feeder & Optima Control
                  Miller MM 251 w/Q300 & 30A SG
                  Hobart HH187
                  Dialarc 250 AC/DC
                  Hypertherm PM 600 & 1250
                  Wilton 7"x12" bandsaw
                  PC Dry Cut Saw, Dewalt Chop Saw
                  Milwaukee 8" Metal Cut Saw, Milwaukee Portaband.
                  Thermco and Smith (2) Gas Mixers
                  More grinders than hands

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by turboglenn View Post
                    It was on AC at 175 and 200 amps being tried with pure argon (tried 15 and 20 on the flow) , 2% thoriated tungsten

                    Thoriated? for aluminum?

                    I have never tried this and see how it welds aluminum, curious to to see what happens as as it seems I have seen many people have problems on here welding aluminum with 2% thoriated tungsten.

                    I have always been told that pure, or ceriated tungsten only for aluminum and to use 2% on steel.

                    Anyone?.....bueller....
                    Last edited by FoxPerformance; 06-03-2009, 12:04 AM.
                    Ben Fox
                    www.FOXPERFORMANCEENGINES.com

                    Miller Dynasty 300 SD
                    Millermatic 130
                    MillerMatic 252
                    Jet Lathe
                    Jet Mill
                    Rottler SG7 seat and guide machine

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I use 2% Thor. on Al. all the time. No problem. I agree with several of the other member's posts. You've got a gas problem. As suggested, make sure you have good flow coming from the torch. If not, check your flow gauge, your lines, and the tank valve.

                      Also, if this is a new tank of gas, it could be the wrong mix or contaminated. Happens every once in a while.

                      Wish you luck.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        1/4" Aluminum

                        Originally posted by nocheepgas View Post
                        I disagree! The Sync 200 is rated for 1/4" aluminum and I do that and 3/8" with mine without any problems.
                        As long as you bevel your stock, of course. 1/4" calls for 260-340 amps, and 3/8" calls for 330-400 amps. The Syncrowave 200 has a maximum output of 200 amps, and is rated 150 amps @ 40% duty cycle. I'm well aware of the potentials and limitations of this machine, I own one.

                        Dave
                        "Bonne journe'e mes amis"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thoriated?

                          Originally posted by turboglenn View Post
                          It was on AC at 175 and 200 amps being tried with pure argon (tried 15 and 20 on the flow) , 2% thoriated tungsten, #8 cup ... All i was trying to do was lay a bead period not pure fusion or mating any parts. ALl the machine has ever done for anyone at that shop is melt globs of filler ontop of the metal like solder drippings. I got a few nice beads by the time i was done and had to leave, but no one could repeat it after i left. The machine seems to give off very little argon at the torch, the bottle was full and the regulator showed read both 15 and 20cfph that we tried respectively. I was mainly puzzled to the orange arc, but maybe it was the mask.. No one else can weld with it and it's never laid an AC bead in it's life until i started getting my buddy interested in firing it up after he got good at MIG.

                          There's definitely an issue because i've welded on all types of miller machines, and for many years borrowed use of a sync 250 (older one) to do all my TIG work, the dynasty was my first inverter use period, so there shoudln't have been that much trouble going back to the weld of a transformer machine.. PLus the cup and workpiece are "sooting up" with both black and white films..black when it drops whatever it's dropping into the weld (moisture in the lines maybe?) and then there's white as if you didn't have any or enough gas (like i said, the flow from post flow feel really weak compared to other TIG's i've played with.



                          I checked that they were tight, but i did not check to see if the wrong one was plugged into tthe wrong outlet *smacks self on head* BUt being that i was in AC i didn't think much of it, but to be honest it seemed like the machine was operating in DCEP ( or reverse polarity ) because of the way it burned up tungsten and had the cup glowing at the end of 15-20 seconds of 200 amp power
                          Well, there's part of the problem, 1% & 2% Thoria (yellow & red) are for DC applications. Great on mild steel. I"ve got to agree with Sundown, as try another torch, if available. Do they have the flow through Dinse connector plugged into the correct machine outlet? Are they using a flow through Dinse connector at all? Sounds to me like whom ever has this machine may not be totally familiar with all of it's inner workings and features, and needs some assistance.

                          Turbo, stop by that place tonight, and check it out with some of the suggestions offered, and let us know what you find. Not to rule out a machine problem, but 98% of the time, it's "operator error."

                          Dave
                          "Bonne journe'e mes amis"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            "Well, there's part of the problem, 1% & 2% Thoria (yellow & red) are for DC applications. Great on mild steel."

                            Not anymore! I was having major problems with my Synchro 180 on Al. When I contacted Miller Tech, they told me to try some Ceriated or Thoriated electrodes sharpened to a point and then to grind the point flat where the flat is about one forth the diameter of the electrode. A small hemishere forms on the flat and you get a concentrated arc that doesn't wander all over the place like on the full diameter one pure tungsten. I was ready to drop-kick the 180 as far as welding Al was concerned but with the "new" tungsten, I can finally get some decent beads.
                            The tech guys said they are trying to recommend this method more and more and it surely makes life a lot easier for stocking electrodes.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I use thoriated on my Hobart. The book says to use it to reduce arc wandering. I tried pure tungsten but it seems like it spits the tungsten really bad and the tungsten ball grows really big real fast. I grind mine like Gerry said and it forms a nice little ball on the tip. Great arc control.

                              Steve
                              Dont force it, use a BIGGER hammer.

                              Linde VI-252C and Linde wire feeder.
                              Hobart Cyberwave 300c.
                              HH 140.
                              Miller Big 40.
                              Lincoln SAE 200J.
                              Hobart GR-303.
                              Lincoln tombstone welder.
                              TD Cutmaster 52.
                              Hobart Stickmate.
                              Miller 211 w/ Spoolgun.
                              Lincoln SA 200.

                              Comment

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