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350p on single phase vs three phase

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  • 350p on single phase vs three phase

    Will they act any differant one vs the other? Will the arc be smoother on three phase or the pulse mode work better on three phase? Just curios, Thanks!

  • #2
    They say 3 phase is smoother than single phase for a given machine.

    There is a 350P on single phase and Lincoln Mig on 3 Phase at a place I do side work, and the Lincoln is much smoother.

    -James

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    • #3
      Just went to three phase with my 350p and it runs a lot better. I was using singal phase and seen that the wire was 12 gauge in the conduit and the welder was over 100 feet from the fuse box. My problems were bad starts erradic wire feed during a weld. This all changed after hooking in to three phase with 10 gauge wire at the same distance from the fuse box. Big change to the better!

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      • #4
        Rick C,

        That shouldn't have been any surprize. No one in their right mind would try running a 350P (single phase) on a 12 ga. wire with a run of 100'. I suspect someone changed out the breaker (dangerous) to one of a larger size. Properly breakered for 12ga wire (20A), you'd be tripping the breaker every time you fired it up.

        My MM251 (300A Max Output), for instance is wired with 6 ga and fed through a 60A breaker.

        No wonder your welder wasn't performing well.
        Syncrowave 250 DX Tigrunner
        Dynasty 200 DX
        Miller XMT 304 w/714D Feeder & Optima Control
        Miller MM 251 w/Q300 & 30A SG
        Hobart HH187
        Dialarc 250 AC/DC
        Hypertherm PM 600 & 1250
        Wilton 7"x12" bandsaw
        PC Dry Cut Saw, Dewalt Chop Saw
        Milwaukee 8" Metal Cut Saw, Milwaukee Portaband.
        Thermco and Smith (2) Gas Mixers
        More grinders than hands

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Rick C View Post
          I was using singal phase and seen that the wire was 12 gauge in the conduit and the welder was over 100 feet from the fuse box. My problems were bad starts erradic wire feed during a weld.
          I'm assuming this was at 575v
          Ed Conley
          http://www.screamingbroccoli.net/
          MM252
          MM211
          Passport Plus w/Spool Gun
          TA185
          Miller 125c Plasma 120v
          O/A set
          SO 2020 Bender
          You can call me Bacchus

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          • #6
            Sundownlll

            Some times I'm not in the right mind. But when things were not performing well started to investagate and thats when I found the 12gauge wire.

            One should not assume what is in the conduit! When one rents an old shop.

            But the single phase out let was closer than the three phase so that is where I pluged into. Now all is well. 10 gauge all the way to the breaker.

            I did not trip a breaker. But it did not take long for me to realize there was a problem, the machine worked fine on a diffrent out let in the same shop
            (160"x 80") It seem to perform better with three phase.
            Rick C

            Comment


            • #7
              Travis,

              With the correct wiring the Millermatic 350P will run the same on single or three phase input power. It will not affect the pulse performance or straight MIG perfomance.
              Kevin Schuh
              Service Technician
              Miller Electric Mfg. Co.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Miller Kevin View Post
                With the correct wiring the Millermatic 350P will run the same on single or three phase input power. It will not affect the pulse performance or straight MIG perfomance.
                thank you, i was waiting for that. i think most of the perceived improvement in "arc smoothness" with 3-phase is virtually all placebo effect, especially with inverter machines.

                people will swear up and down all day that 3-phase makes a better arc or whatever, but in a blind test i'm certain that 999 out of 1000 welders couldn't tell the difference and their guess as to which was running on 3-phase would be nothing more than 50/50.

                let's face it, an inverter rectifies the power to DC before anything else happens. you could argue that the rectified power has a tiny bit less jitter because of the 3 phase AC input, but you'll never convince me that a tiny decrease in supply power jitter improves a weld arc noticeably.
                miller dynasty 350
                miller spectrum 1000

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by SundownIII View Post
                  Rick C,

                  That shouldn't have been any surprize. No one in their right mind would try running a 350P (single phase) on a 12 ga. wire with a run of 100'. I suspect someone changed out the breaker (dangerous) to one of a larger size. Properly breakered for 12ga wire (20A), you'd be tripping the breaker every time you fired it up.

                  My MM251 (300A Max Output), for instance is wired with 6 ga and fed through a 60A breaker.

                  No wonder your welder wasn't performing well.
                  My electrician wired my 350p with # 6 " I think, it might be bigger but it's not a long run" feed by a 100amp breaker, with 60amp plug and receptical. Single phase. I've had zero issues ,and she runs great.
                  I thought the 100 amp breaker was around but he said it had to do with duty cycle and you can up size because of that. I'm not a sparky so I went with the pros in that department.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by overkill 19 View Post
                    .
                    I thought the 100 amp breaker was around but he said it had to do with duty cycle and you can up size because of that. I'm not a sparky so I went with the pros in that department.
                    Must be a Canada thing..... having a breaker larger than your receptacle rating... particularly almost doubling it is a big no no.... and can result in a forced donation to OSHA (if the inspector is being a real douche).... the problem is that one could vaporize the receptacle and cause a fire before the breaker even thought of tripping....
                    Bobcat 225NT
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                    • #11
                      <My MM251 (300A Max Output), for instance is wired with 6 ga and fed through a 60A breaker.>

                      Hey, why don't you compare apples to apples here?
                      You always have something negative to say, and that seems to continue.

                      Your MM251 is NOT an inverter machine..... so yeah, it requires a lot larger wire than an inverter of equal power.
                      My MM252 I wired with 6ga wire also.
                      But my 200DX is wired with #10 with a 30 amp breaker and I could have done it with #12 wire.
                      pg
                      Dynasty 200 DX_set up on 3 phase
                      Coolmate 3
                      MM 251 w/ Spoolmatic 30A
                      HTP 625 Micro Cut Plasma Cutter
                      Victor O/A Rig
                      Bridgeport Mill_3 phase (w/ Acu-Rite 4 axis DRO)
                      10 inch South Bend Lathe_3 phase
                      Baldor Double Cup Tool Grinder_3 phase
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                      Rockwell 12 inch Disc Sander
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                      Quincy 325 2stg- Air Compressor_3 phase
                      Graymills Built-in Parts Washer
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                      • #12
                        Pinion,

                        You ain't the first and certainly won't be the last to be put off by Sundown but you
                        have me scratching my head with your concern over his comments.

                        Although you are correct in your statement regarding Inverters:

                        Inverter or not, a poor Circuit is a poor Circuit

                        12g/20amp Circuit is a POOR circuit for a 350p and Sundown merely pointed out
                        that since he has a MM251- (a smaller power draw than a 350p) and it requires 6g on a 60amp.... a 350p on 12g is just plain wrong and poor performance should not be a surprise.

                        Ed Conley
                        http://www.screamingbroccoli.net/
                        MM252
                        MM211
                        Passport Plus w/Spool Gun
                        TA185
                        Miller 125c Plasma 120v
                        O/A set
                        SO 2020 Bender
                        You can call me Bacchus

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ridesideways View Post
                          thank you, i was waiting for that. i think most of the perceived improvement in "arc smoothness" with 3-phase is virtually all placebo effect, especially with inverter machines.

                          people will swear up and down all day that 3-phase makes a better arc or whatever, but in a blind test i'm certain that 999 out of 1000 welders couldn't tell the difference and their guess as to which was running on 3-phase would be nothing more than 50/50.

                          let's face it, an inverter rectifies the power to DC before anything else happens. you could argue that the rectified power has a tiny bit less jitter because of the 3 phase AC input, but you'll never convince me that a tiny decrease in supply power jitter improves a weld arc noticeably.
                          I think this is very true.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Broccoli1 View Post
                            Pinion,

                            You ain't the first and certainly won't be the last to be put off by Sundown but you
                            have me scratching my head with your concern over his comments.

                            Although you are correct in your statement regarding Inverters:

                            Inverter or not, a poor Circuit is a poor Circuit

                            12g/20amp Circuit is a POOR circuit for a 350p and Sundown merely pointed out
                            that since he has a MM251- (a smaller power draw than a 350p) and it requires 6g on a 60amp.... a 350p on 12g is just plain wrong and poor performance should not be a surprise.

                            I agree with you and my comment on 12g/20 amp was related to my DX200 (which I have connected 10g /30 amp--- 3 phase).
                            That guy is always negative and instead of being helpful to someone he makes these smart *** statements.
                            In short, I just don't like that guy.....never have and never will.
                            Thanks....AH, I feel better now.
                            pg
                            Dynasty 200 DX_set up on 3 phase
                            Coolmate 3
                            MM 251 w/ Spoolmatic 30A
                            HTP 625 Micro Cut Plasma Cutter
                            Victor O/A Rig
                            Bridgeport Mill_3 phase (w/ Acu-Rite 4 axis DRO)
                            10 inch South Bend Lathe_3 phase
                            Baldor Double Cup Tool Grinder_3 phase
                            Baldor 10 inch Buffer
                            Rockwell 12 inch Disc Sander
                            Cyclone 2ft X 3ft Bead Blast Cabinet
                            Quincy 325 2stg- Air Compressor_3 phase
                            Graymills Built-in Parts Washer
                            Rockwell/Delta Planer, HD Shaper, Uni-Saw etc.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Pinion,

                              Nice to see that you're still making a fool of yourself.

                              What's impressive is that you had to go back to a comment made in 2008 to find fault.

                              Inverter or not, the MM350P shows it needs a 61A service at 230V, single phase, whereas the MM251 needs 42A at the same 230V, single phase.

                              Maybe you'd like to explain to me how you think you're going to get 61A (even derated for a welder) out of 12ga wire.

                              Maybe I wouldn't have to be so "blunt" if we didn't have so many jackazzes he hawing on the board.
                              Syncrowave 250 DX Tigrunner
                              Dynasty 200 DX
                              Miller XMT 304 w/714D Feeder & Optima Control
                              Miller MM 251 w/Q300 & 30A SG
                              Hobart HH187
                              Dialarc 250 AC/DC
                              Hypertherm PM 600 & 1250
                              Wilton 7"x12" bandsaw
                              PC Dry Cut Saw, Dewalt Chop Saw
                              Milwaukee 8" Metal Cut Saw, Milwaukee Portaband.
                              Thermco and Smith (2) Gas Mixers
                              More grinders than hands

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