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  • 2 quick questions`

    I make 12 o'clock bars for motorcycles and sell them on the web and since changing to making them using the 200DX instead of my HH135 they are looking even better and i trust that the strength has improved as well.

    I have a question about some stick welding though and one about TIG

    I'm welding some 1/4'' steel at 90* with the stick, and I use the TIG for most of the main assembly. i'm using stick on the bracing to save on argon and since the area is not seen after installation.

    I like the looks of the beads with 7018 but is it's penetration enough alone with a single weaving pass to be trusted, or is it more for capping/looks?

    This would normally be a MIG'ed part with a C pattern single pass with 135 amps and .030 wire (not optimal but it's worked for years) I just want to use stick to keep up on my skills and have another reason to burn some rod since i've taken such a liking to ARC welding since owning the dx

    It's about a 6 inch bead, one each side (so 24 inches of total weld) and is basically just bracing to make a "T" beam out of the longest stretch of material on the assembly. It will hold a load of aprox. 300 - 350 lbs and take an impact of roughly 10-20mph tops, usually a skilled rider can touch them down with hardly any impact force at all, but begginers tend to slam the 300 lbs down pretty hard until they get good. Hoefully that helps give some info on the required weld strength.


    My other question concerns undercut. This is just A36 cold rolled i'm working with and even at 150 amps on the dx im getting a fair bit of undercut and I'm moving as fast as the filler puddle will let me and i'm still getting it, so i couldn't imaging how bad it would be if i actually used the 1 amp per .001 rule and ran 250 amps...any advice?
    Dynasty 200DX
    Hobart Handler 135
    Smith MB55A-510 O/A setup
    Lathe/Mill/Bandsaw
    Hypertherm Powermax 45
    Just about every other hand tool you can imagine

  • #2
    Not sure what you are making,but what size stick rod are you using? for 1/4 inch thick material a 3/32 7018 at about 80 amps is sufficient.
    2- XMT's 350 cc/cv
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    • #3
      Penetration

      I have always used 7018 as a cover rod it does have decent penetration but not much dig. i will tell you keeping them in a hot box is recommended as well.

      a good digging or penetrating rod is 6010 or 6011 i am sure there is other options but i would use a 1/8th 6010 with a whip and pause motion if you got the room. then cover it with a 7018.

      You could also go over it with 3/32 6010 just to get a good dig and penetrating pass with the same whip and pause and cover with a 1/8th 7018 or 7014

      as far as the undercut goes what size filler rod are you using and have you tried adding more filler or going to a bigger rod and have you tried slowing down at all to let the puddle flow out, is it on the top or bottom of the weld

      just my two cents
      Last edited by mooseman63825; 12-03-2008, 04:04 PM.

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      • #4
        The thing i'm making is sort of a scrape plate that goes on the back of a motorcycle that used to modify stunts or used as a foot rest for certain body position wheelies. When you're in a wheely you can fall back like you were going to loop out and wreck and let the bike hit and sit on this bar and scrape, then using the rear brake you can come back up off the bar and resume the normal wheely (if you're good anyway ).

        I am not sure what the whip technique is as i can't find anything on it that demonstrates how to do it online or in any of my books. I've been looking here and there for a few weeks since reading about it a few times lately. can you explain or point to a picture of the motions with the whip?

        i made several of these a few weeks ago that were all sold and i used different rods from 3/32 7018 to 3/32 and 1/8 6013 and 6011..the 7018 was the prettiest, the others were quite spattery and had to have more finsih work put in than i like to do on them. I warantee them and haven't heard anything back about the 7018 one in reguards to any failures, customer loves it is all i've heard.

        Would the single pass 7018 be at least comparable to MIG'ing it at 135 amps in a circular or C motion using .030 wire?
        Dynasty 200DX
        Hobart Handler 135
        Smith MB55A-510 O/A setup
        Lathe/Mill/Bandsaw
        Hypertherm Powermax 45
        Just about every other hand tool you can imagine

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        • #5
          msn

          the whip and pause technique is moving one full rod diameter forward then half back i will try and put together a demo video for you sometime this weekend if i can go get some more rod im all out and it sucks lol. 6010,6011, and the other are penetration rods the will spatter and throw crap everywhere they were made for farmers so they didn't have to clean the metals.
          and just let the rod dig through the crud to get to fresh metal the 7018 should be fine. if you are worried. make a t-joint and break it and look how deep its penetrating

          glen im on MSN messenger if you want to hop on there [email protected]
          Last edited by mooseman63825; 12-03-2008, 04:43 PM.

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          • #6
            If I had to put my life on the line I'd use 7018 over any hard wire mig period . Just because your welding that hard wire hotter than you're burning your 7018 doesn't have anything to do with which one is stronger . Also if your running a 1/8' 7018 at 150 amps your way to hot .
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            • #7
              I second that......and 7018 is strong as sh!t. How thick is the plate you are welding? 1/4"? You shouldn't need hardly a weave if doing a double fillet weld.....Dave
              Originally posted by Showdog75 View Post
              If I had to put my life on the line I'd use 7018 over any hard wire mig period . Just because your welding that hard wire hotter than you're burning your 7018 doesn't have anything to do with which one is stronger . Also if your running a 1/8' 7018 at 150 amps your way to hot .

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              • #8
                I'd bet my life on stick over mig any day, as long as it's done right.
                Most carbon steel mig wire is 70,000 psi tensile, just the same as a 7018, but you just never know with mig...getting near the bottom of the tank or someone opens a door, blows away your gas..the weld might look fine on the outside, but touch it with a grinder and you could find major porosity. That's not an issue with stick when done properly. 7018 is used on structural more than any other rod here and strength should not be a concern.
                However, you shouldn't be weaving anything if you're just doing one pass on 1/4" with a 7018. If you have to weave it with the 3/32, just move up to a 1/8 rod and and do a regular stringer.

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                • #9
                  make a 1/4" fillet w/ 1/8" 7018 at 120A. Every building you've ever stood in with a welded structure was welded with 7018. Since you're fabricating something that will receive an impact.. research the charpy V notch test... NEVER use 6011 or 6013 on something that's going to get hit..
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                  • #10
                    10-4 0n the 7018

                    Come to think of it, I don't believe the AWS Structural Code Book has any pre-qualified solid MIG wire welds. I believe Flux core and dual shield, (including seismic E71-TK8) is, everything else is SMAW 7018. Anyone more up to speed on the code, please comment.
                    "Bonne journe'e mes amis"

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by turboglenn View Post
                      My other question concerns undercut. This is just A36 cold rolled i'm working with and even at 150 amps on the dx im getting a fair bit of undercut and I'm moving as fast as the filler puddle will let me and i'm still getting it, so i couldn't imaging how bad it would be if i actually used the 1 amp per .001 rule and ran 250 amps...any advice?
                      Just to explain your heat problem. You're misinterpeting the "1 amp per .001" rule. When I first got introduced to welding some 40 years ago in high school we were taught it as a quick reminder for stick welding amps per size of rod, not thickness of steel......i.e., 95 amps for a 3/32" rod, 125 amps for a 1/8" rod, 155 amps for a 5/32" rod. Modern times have shown this rule to apply to tig amps to metal thickness. I have never agreed with this and can only figure it as a starting point for someone with an amptrol and that in effect once the arc is struck the amperage is lowered quite a bit.....i.e. I'd tig weld a 3" tube with approximate 1/4" wall at about 100 -120 amps depending on gap. IMHO, the 250-300 amps listed in the Miller calculator needs clarification.

                      A good starting point when welding the fillets with 7018 on your 1/4" plate would be a heat just slightly lower then the point where 1/8" size round 'buckshot' start spitting out of your puddle. Your puddle should appear about twice as long as your flux coated rod. This should be around 125 amps and then down a bit if you weld the other side while she's still hot. Better yet, you could bevel the ends and run the first pass on either side with 3/32" and then you'd practically assure a full pen weld.

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                      • #12
                        Just like to add a little piece. With the Dynasty, your dig setting will effect how you set your amperage. At 100% dig, turn a 1/8 7018 up past 130 amps and the rod will run quite rough. However if you back off the dig setting you can turn it up a little hotter, and will be left with a smoother bead. Don't be afraid to turn it up. I always try and carry as much heat as the weldment will permit me to, the end results will usually work out the best.

                        Just for interest, you can burn a 1/8 7018 up to about 155-160 amps (Really big weaves in grooves ) before the rod starts to get rubbery and pinches off near the stinger .

                        Disclaimer: The previous statements are only my opinion, take or leave what you will.
                        Dynasty 200DX, first generation
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                        • #13
                          Wow, overnight I got loads of great info that really help me feel right about using the 7018 and re-assured that i wasn't going crazy thinking 1 amp per .001 was too hot on thicker stuff with my TIG

                          Well, dinner's a cookin, be back in a bit
                          Dynasty 200DX
                          Hobart Handler 135
                          Smith MB55A-510 O/A setup
                          Lathe/Mill/Bandsaw
                          Hypertherm Powermax 45
                          Just about every other hand tool you can imagine

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