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Bit of a rant: Concave MIG welds

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  • Bit of a rant: Concave MIG welds

    Okay, so today i go to a "prospective employer" to practice on his Miller 350P for a project i'm supposed to weld tomorrow. I'm in the back welding scraps, getting settings down and doing quite well in my own opinion. Well, the owner comes back and starts laying beads just like mine and then starts to act kind of mad. He states "I NEED CONCAVE beads that are ALL uniform, both fillet and butt" And he is pretty much insisting that i do this with his 350P. I told him from everything i've read nd seen that you're not going to get a concave fillet out of a machine loaded with .045 wire especially when using enough current to penetrate .250 mild steel. He then tries to "show me" and does identical welds to what i had been doing and I'd only been on this machine for 30 minutes TOPS.

    Then he tells me again how they must be concave, and that the but and fillet welds need to look exactly alike in profile, width and height. I basically tell him that i've never seen those criteria able to be met ( i'm not an expert, but after 12 years i feel that i am "good") And I tell him that the only place i've seen "concave" welds are on aluminum trailers welded with an ESAB push pull gun and that those welds were no good because i had to fix them last week as they all cracked (the rain thread i made)

    Plus what really pi$$ed me off BIG_TIME is that everytime i set the 350P to where i could get decent beads he would come and set everythign back to the default settins and say "it does just fine on what the chart on the cover says, no need to change anythng" Again, now i'm even MORE pi$$ed and stated, "every welder, weldor and that persons technique is going to need different settings, I'm going to tailor it to suit me if i'm going to use it."

    I tell him "I can get the look you want with my TIG, i'll just bring it by and we'll do it up".... This makes him even more pissy and says "come back first thing tomorrow and we'll give it one more chance with my MIG" ... "then if nothing works i'll send it to place "X" or place "Y" to be welded"

    So on my way home i call a few people that have more time in welding and more succesfull welding businesses than me and tell them the "criteria" and both of them laugh and say, "never seen that before" ....fast forward 20 minutes

    I get home, cut some material like we were welding in his shop and make several different fillet, butt and autogenous welds. I call him up and say, "Hey, i've got the bead look and uniformity that you're wanting using my TIG, the penetration is good and your customer wil love it.. I can get it done tomorrow easily" ..then he says "What kind of machine are you using?"..to which i say "A Miller Dynasty 200DX" ...to which he says .. "Oh, that's nothing more than the Thermal Arc 185 i have at the shop" (that he don't know how to use i might add, and has asked me to train him on).. Then he proceeds to say, "well just come by in the morning still and we'll see if we can get my MIG to do it"

    This upset me BIG TIME.. because from what i've read, been told and just IMHO the Dynasty is WAY better than his thermal arc (correct me if i'm wrong).... So tomorrow i'm taking him some samples i made tonight of the welds i did after getting home, which are great beads IMO and also OK'd by the other weldors i mentioned earlier and were stated as "great welds".

    I've been trying to make this guy happy because he offered to employ me through the winter since i have machining and welding skills and have been at it for many years (this welding i'm doing this week is my "employment test" so to speak... But if he expects me to do weak, inferior and "un-passable" welds with his mig just so he can be happy that his stuff was what was used, well then he can find some kid right out of tech school and deal with that headache for all i care.

    I'm NOT sacrificing my name and reputaion because of something he thinks i should be able to do with his equipment when he is not even a competent enough weldor to do this job on his own which is why he called me in... (it was funny when he tried to show me how to lay a bead correctly and couldn't do any better than me on his own machine hahah). Just because he's got a little over 1.2 million in equipment doesn't make him good ( as we all know :P )

    So tomorrow i'm taking him my coupons that i made today with all different weld types and profiles using multiple fillers for different looks as well, I'm going to hand it to him and say "IF you want it done, I'll do it my way, it will be 40 and hour minimum or you can send it out of house and wait a week on it".... "but i'm not going to waste materials and half my day just because you "think" i should be able to make beatifull TIG-like fillets with your pulsing MIG"..

    Ahhh... Sorry i had to rant..this could be a great job with access to waterjet, CNC mill, lathe and several other cool items but not if i have to put up with some one like this.

    Anyone else feel my headache on this or have a similar story?
    Last edited by turboglenn; 10-20-2008, 09:06 PM.
    Dynasty 200DX
    Hobart Handler 135
    Smith MB55A-510 O/A setup
    Lathe/Mill/Bandsaw
    Hypertherm Powermax 45
    Just about every other hand tool you can imagine

  • #2
    I am not understanding the request of your "potential employer".... Every weld I do (Fillet or Groove) is done with a cap pass that is flat to slightly CONVEX.... With the slightly convex being restricted to the thickness of a dime.

    That is how I was trained. That is my spec. That is my intention with every weld. SMAW, GMAW, FCAW, GTAW. Really doesn't matter.

    If he wants them CONCAVE... ask him if you can turn it up and run it downhand...LOL he can have them as concave and barely there as he likes.

    Hey, don't get me wrong here. I do understand your position being frustrated and all, and yes - work IS work... But the guy is just not being reasonable.

    If he is switching the welder back to default settings, he must not know how to use it either, or else he would understand your customizing the settings.

    If you make it the winter, you will be a person with more patience than myself.

    Good Luck.
    Later,
    Jason

    Professional Spark Generator by Trade.

    Comment


    • #3
      you would be surprised how many people buy a top grade welder and think they are as good as the equipment, or better than you due to their newer/better welder. some people just don't get it and never will. buying an airplane dose not make you a pilot.
      sounds like this guy could be very hard to work for all winter, you got any other options.
      as for the Dyn200 VS the TA-185......... they are fairly close comparisons although the TA-185 dose not have a 120V option. other than that they are very close. the Dyn adjusts a bit higher on the Hertz and PPS but the TA still adjusts way up there. a lot of the guys on here have the TA-185 and will tell you its a real nice TIG unit. you should try his out if ya get a chance. you may like it enough to keep you from having to haul your Dyn200 back and forth wile working for him. not to mention its always better to put the wear and tear on some one else's welder if you still get the same $$ for the job. as long as its within the 185 amp range of the TA you should be happy using his instead of putting the time on yours.
      thanks for the help
      ......or..........
      hope i helped
      sigpic
      feel free to shoot me an e-mail direct i have time to chat. [email protected]
      summer is here, plant a tree. if you don't have space or time to plant one sponsor some one else to plant one for you. a tree is an investment in our planet, help it out.
      JAMES

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by fun4now View Post
        you would be surprised how many people buy a top grade welder and think they are as good as the equipment, or better than you due to their newer/better welder. some people just don't get it and never will. buying an airplane dose not make you a pilot.
        I see it all too often around here...I'm one of 2 people i know out of roughly 15 or so that can even operate the TIG they own..They use it for the "cool factor" to sit in the garage or shop ..what a shame

        sounds like this guy could be very hard to work for all winter, you got any other options.
        I agree 100%, the more time i spend around him, the less i want to in the future..but he has agreed to pay me my 40 an hour, let me use all his equipment and share his shop (but charge for waterjet stuff), all for helping him out at a "fair price" (the 40 an hour) and some help on machiing here and there. Not bad IMO since my last shop with this deal was teh one that went bankrupt

        As for options.... unfortunately NO, the place that hired me from my last day job failed to close on buying out the metal supply store to expand his too & die biz, then the metal shop went bankrupt 2 days later....This was 4 days before i was to start andmy last boss had already found a replacement (and was pissed i left anyway)

        as for the Dyn200 VS the TA-185......... they are fairly close comparisons although the TA-185 dose not have a 120V option. other than that they are very close. the Dyn adjusts a bit higher on the Hertz and PPS but the TA still adjusts way up there. a lot of the guys on here have the TA-185 and will tell you its a real nice TIG unit. you should try his out if ya get a chance. you may like it enough to keep you from having to haul your Dyn200 back and forth wile working for him. not to mention its always better to put the wear and tear on some one else's welder if you still get the same $$ for the job. as long as its within the 185 amp range of the TA you should be happy using his instead of putting the time on yours.
        I know the TA isn't bad, but he talked down on my 200dx like it was just a baby machine when it will do quite a bit more than most think and has capabilities to make an old timer say "WOW!" (most know this)...Either way the TA200 even falls behind the invertec 205 as far as comparison of features between the 3 units..so ha LOL A few of my complaints on it are a max. of 65% EN in AC, and a max Frequency of 150hz

        He's even paying me to teach him to use the thernal arc....it's never even been hooked up and covered in dust :sad (i'll be the first to fire it up, burn his argon, rod and electrodes )


        On a brighter side my friend who introduced me to him said the guy is just kinda "blah" like that and lacks social skills big time...so maybe that's all it is...we'll see..everything i hear is how nice adn great he is... I hope to see that side....but i still say my 200dx is better than his TA LOL LOL (j/k but really i do :P )
        Last edited by turboglenn; 10-21-2008, 02:15 AM.
        Dynasty 200DX
        Hobart Handler 135
        Smith MB55A-510 O/A setup
        Lathe/Mill/Bandsaw
        Hypertherm Powermax 45
        Just about every other hand tool you can imagine

        Comment


        • #5
          So he's willing to send the part out to have it come back the way he wants it, but he's not willing to stay out of your hair and let you do it so that it comes out the way he wants it. Genius.

          Comment


          • #6
            Always slightly convex.

            Never saw a concave weld even with spray arc at 400 amps plus and .045" or .052". Maybe some chicken -s poor trailer welds at a bad factory, very rarely.
            Sounds like you are working for the d- near impossible to please.

            Comment


            • #7
              after reading all of that .................


              wow.


              really really wow.

              I admire your desire for winter employment

              Comment


              • #8
                ....but i still say my 200dx is better than his TA LOL LOL
                i agree the DX is a nicer unit, just saying the TA-185 is a good unit. and you may be able to put the Hr's on his and save your Dyn. for your work when his is not available. although you just said its a TA-200. i have not heard any-thing on that unit, most get the TA-185 to get into TIG inverters at a lower $ than the Dyn200. and use the TA-185 to make the $$ needed to upgrade to the Dyn200. due to the $1,000.00 difference in purchase price. or just cat see spending the extra $$ to go to the Dyn200 over the TA-185 for a home hobby toy. thats how i ended up with a TA-185 instead of the Dyn.200, just couldn't come up with the extra $$. although i think the TA-185 is getting closer to the Dyn200's price now i think. i suspect the TA-200 would be as nice as the TA-185, if thats the case you should be happy with its arc and have no problem using his rather than yours.
                but he talked down on my 200dx like it was just a baby machine
                sorry to hear that, but some will never get it.

                i hope he turns out to be a better person to work for than it seems at first. seems like he could be a good option for work with great side perks. i'll keep my fingers crossed that he turns out to be some one you can work with.
                thanks for the help
                ......or..........
                hope i helped
                sigpic
                feel free to shoot me an e-mail direct i have time to chat. [email protected]
                summer is here, plant a tree. if you don't have space or time to plant one sponsor some one else to plant one for you. a tree is an investment in our planet, help it out.
                JAMES

                Comment


                • #9
                  Well, this AM I took him several examples of fillet, but and some autogenous welds (all of which will apply in this project)his eyes bulged out of his head and he said "If you can do welds like that on this project, we're set to go as long as you don't mind the time to TIG it together"

                  His demeanor changed completely and now he can't wait for me to get started on projects of his, and now he's talking about even more work for me

                  I told him straight up... I like MIG welding, but i specialize in stainless and Aluminum TIG work and that's what i practice EVERYDAY... And stated to me that MIG in my shop is used for exhaust, fast low cost simple repairs and where apearance isn't as important as function (of course there's a ton of other things i do with mig, but TIG is my love followed by O/A when it comes to metal working with heat/fusion etc..)

                  I brought home some material from the project i start tomorrow and although the welds werent' quite what I wanted they are more than what he expected.

                  Also his Thermal Arc is the 185 STW, he said he wants me to use it so i can master it and then teach him how to use it..And he said the same as some of you "keep the hours off your machine and just use mine if it will work for you"

                  He was so happy with what i shoed him today he was offering all kinds of things to me..... I must have just caugth him in an off mood the last few times i met him, or he was just that impressed with my work...But like i said..I'm no "master tig guy" just some one who takes pride in what i do and don't settle for sub-par welds coming from my shop.

                  Burning his Argone will be the best benefit IMO, I get so ran down from getting a bottle swapped a couple times a week (plus lugging it around ) that it will be nice to TIG for some several hours and then come home to a fresh full bottle...not to mention not having to carry it down the flight of stairs to where my "mini-lab" welding station is at the house.

                  His latest offer is... I can use his shop, equipment and anything else i might need of his along with offering me a job and said the only thing he wants to make sure we keep track of as far as "service for service" work is waterjet use.... I'm going to have him cut me out a bunch of stuff as soon as i figure out what besides teh few things i've been waiting on already (manifold flanges and letters for my name and greek letters for selling stuff to some alumni frat guys i know that are LOADED!!)

                  Well, it's been a great day, i hope everyone elses has been too...thanks for backing me up and listening to my rant on this
                  Dynasty 200DX
                  Hobart Handler 135
                  Smith MB55A-510 O/A setup
                  Lathe/Mill/Bandsaw
                  Hypertherm Powermax 45
                  Just about every other hand tool you can imagine

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Glad to hear it might work out for you after all,
                    It's weird that he wanted concave welds so bad.. it must be for aesthetics only?
                    Yea some guys can be difficult, sometimes you just gotta let things slide, and sometimes you have to put your foot down when they start being disrespectful. Good luck this winter!
                    Freelance Fabber
                    Mobile>
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                    07 Miller Trailblazer 302g
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                    Miller Dynasty 300sd
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                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Awesome

                      It looks like your persistence has paid off! Send a few pics of fillets with the TA-185. I welded with one a few years back, but otherwise most all my hours go to the D200DX or D300DX.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Burninrod View Post
                        Glad to hear it might work out for you after all,
                        It's weird that he wanted concave welds so bad.. it must be for aesthetics only?
                        Yea some guys can be difficult, sometimes you just gotta let things slide, and sometimes you have to put your foot down when they start being disrespectful. Good luck this winter!
                        Yea, it's definitely for aesthetics, the stands/tables i'm building are to support robotic welders used in automatic assembly plant here in omaha. So far the waterjet guy only has teh contracts for cutting the metal, he's hoping that through my welding skills and the looks that go with them that he/we will be able to pick up every aspect of their product needs from start to finish (i pint as well and have brought that up and we are going to see if we can even get that part of it)

                        I'll get pics up if i can remember, but honestly i can't even think these days, my life is pretty much h3ll right now with my woman leaving for 8 months and me paying ALL the bills for the duration (minimum of 2,200.00 a month not counting food, gas and smokes) If i can't make it and stay here i'm packing up my metal working equipment and heading the fark out of here..Going south for sure if so because i can't take another nebraska winter. Been here 12 years after a move from the east coast and this place is an absolute barron, frozen wasteland of a city come winter...very depressin place to live, especially when your woman is leaving you for such a long period of time.. In some ways i have a feeling she won't be coming back except to get her things so i might as well do the est for ME and get the heck outta here !
                        Dynasty 200DX
                        Hobart Handler 135
                        Smith MB55A-510 O/A setup
                        Lathe/Mill/Bandsaw
                        Hypertherm Powermax 45
                        Just about every other hand tool you can imagine

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Here is a good Chart for the TA 185

                          http://www.aceengineering.ca/Temp/TIGWeldingChart.pdf

                          That Conrad_Turbo put together.
                          Ed Conley
                          http://www.screamingbroccoli.net/
                          MM252
                          MM211
                          Passport Plus w/Spool Gun
                          TA185
                          Miller 125c Plasma 120v
                          O/A set
                          SO 2020 Bender
                          You can call me Bacchus

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            glad it all worked out for ya.
                            could be he went threw a hole bunch od wanna-bee welders claiming to be great/prose, only to show him they suc k . there is a bunch of threads about guys trying to find good help and the stuff they see as test welds would blow your mind.LOL add to that a bad week and the fear of loosing a customer due to not having a proper welder to cover his needs and you got one grumpy guy. glad he is turning out to be some one you can work with.

                            sorry to hear about the gal situation. on the brighter side, this guy might be a chance for ya to save up some $$ for the move if you decide to go that way.
                            best of luck with the new job/situation.
                            thanks for the help
                            ......or..........
                            hope i helped
                            sigpic
                            feel free to shoot me an e-mail direct i have time to chat. [email protected]
                            summer is here, plant a tree. if you don't have space or time to plant one sponsor some one else to plant one for you. a tree is an investment in our planet, help it out.
                            JAMES

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Okay, this guy is just a freak... He was happy with the sample welds, then i took home some material that we're going to use and did some more samples..Now he says that they aren't consistant enough, but we've got everything from 90* fillets, but joined autogenous and open root gaps on the sides where the stock has rounded edges. He liked everything but the open root stuff and the corners... Said that "they need to be continuous as if a robot did them" I was like WTF?????? I said "i have to stop and start some where and since i can't weld above the surface of the open root areas i had no choice but to weld it like i did".

                              He just kep saying "it has to look like a robotic weld" to which i replied, wellI'm no robot that's for sure..... Said he'd use me on some more projects but that these customers are so picky that he can't risk having 2 beads that aren't completely identical on the open root stuff, but he won't accept a "pipe style" weld either with one root pass then 2 more on top..He expected a completely level bead in the open root areas with no undercut what so ever (my undercut was very scarce and only a few thousandths deep at most), no convexing and no concaving on the root/gap welds...the concave is in the 90* fillets and he loved those... God this guy is hard to please and i was really looking forward to a winter job and at least for now some work for the week

                              It's like he thinks a man free hand welding should be able to do as good as his waterjet when it comes to everything coming out exactly alike... I'm good, but not that [email protected] good....jeeeese

                              Now im' really pissed, I have well over 6hours in samples, practice and other little stuff on this project with him and i just had to tell him sendd it to some one he thinks can do what he wants... I can't wait to see if some one can actually do it
                              Last edited by turboglenn; 10-22-2008, 06:05 PM.
                              Dynasty 200DX
                              Hobart Handler 135
                              Smith MB55A-510 O/A setup
                              Lathe/Mill/Bandsaw
                              Hypertherm Powermax 45
                              Just about every other hand tool you can imagine

                              Comment

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