Open root 3g Vertical up student

[Ta2ood]

I'm currently attending school to become a qualified welder and to advance myself as much as possible. I am working on my open root 3g vertical up and I seem to have a few problems. I was wondering if a few of the more expierienced welders would be able to maybe lend a few tips and what not on the techniques of the craft. I have completed preparing a good Groove angle and filing a nice flat land on my coupons. The first thing I'm struggling with is getting a nice solid tack with proper penetration and a good keyhole to work with. I'm getting a little better with this by toying around with arc length and oscillating a bit more to form a better puddle. But, I am still having some troubles with getting the first portion of the weld to penetrate properly. The second thing I'm struggling with is starting again from a place I have stopped. I have a good Work angle and Push angle and can run a good bead with solid penetration using the E6010 3/32. However when I stop to continue the weld I am having a bit of trouble tying the weld in. I have tried a few different ways such as grinding the previous weld about 3/8 back and making a downward slope very thin towards the keyhole and I've also tried widening the keyhole a bit and arcing in front of the weld then dragging it back. If I could get a few tips on how to tie in better and or some info on how to prep the previous weld a different way it would be greatly appreciated.

We are using a 3/8 to 5/8 mild steel plate usually with about a 37 1/2 Bevel angle and our land is generally prepped to 1/8.
We are also using the E6010 3/32 for the root followed by the E7018 for our Hot pass, Fill Pass, and our Cap.

So ya any good advice on how to better myself would def be appreciated and ty for taking the time to read my post.

[Black Wolf]

You never said what you had for a gap between your plates, and that along with the size of the land is the key to your penetration.

We teach that weld a little differently up here...

Here is how I was trained, and what we do for our test:

3/8" plate with 30 degree bevels (60 degree included)

Land 3/32"

Gap between 3/32" and 1/8"

Set up plates face down and tack on the ends from the backside. Bare end of 3/32" rod will barely make it through the gap, the 1/8" will not. If the 1/8" drops through, grind out your tacks and re-do.

Laying face up - feather edge tacks.

Check your gap on both ends, tighter side goes to the bottom of the weld, and weld upwards to the looser gap as it will close up during welding.

Using 1/8" 6010 @ 80 - 85 amps, strike your arc on the bottom tack and long arc slightly to let it heat up. As you progress upwards over the feathered part of the tack, shorten your arc, and start stacking. Electrode angle is 1/2 of joint angle (so 90 degrees to plates) Electrode inclination is slightly (10 or 15 degrees) uphill in the direction of the weld.

Stop/Starts - feather the deposit if you are allowed. Restart same as starting on tack.

Hot Pass/Fill Pass/Cap Pass - I run them all with 3/32" 7018 at around 95 to 100 amps, but that is just me.

More text book would be to run your Hot Pass at 95 amps, then your Fill and Cap at 85 - 90 amps.

Hope that helps.

Jump in boys and help the young feller out.

[Cornerstone]

You never said what you had for a gap between your plates, and that along with the size of the land is the key to your penetration.

We teach that weld a little differently up here...

Here is how I was trained, and what we do for our test:

3/8" plate with 30 degree bevels (60 degree included)

Land 3/32"

Gap between 3/32" and 1/8"

Set up plates face down and tack on the ends from the backside. Bare end of 3/32" rod will barely make it through the gap, the 1/8" will not. If the 1/8" drops through, grind out your tacks and re-do.

Laying face up - feather edge tacks.

Check your gap on both ends, tighter side goes to the bottom of the weld, and weld upwards to the looser gap as it will close up during welding.

Using 1/8" 6010 @ 80 - 85 amps, strike your arc on the bottom tack and long arc slightly to let it heat up. As you progress upwards over the feathered part of the tack, shorten your arc, and start stacking. Electrode angle is 1/2 of joint angle (so 90 degrees to plates) Electrode inclination is slightly (10 or 15 degrees) uphill in the direction of the weld.

Stop/Starts - feather the deposit if you are allowed. Restart same as starting on tack.

Hot Pass/Fill Pass/Cap Pass - I run them all with 3/32" 7018 at around 95 to 100 amps, but that is just me.

More text book would be to run your Hot Pass at 95 amps, then your Fill and Cap at 85 - 90 amps.

Hope that helps.

Jump in boys and help the young feller out.

Hello Jason, this is the Head welding instructor at NAIT. Would you be interested in employment this winter session. Sorry J, couldn't resist.

[Cornerstone]

You got some very detailed instruction Ta2ood from blackwolf and thats exactly how we were taught when I went thru for my last year of trade school.And that was in '92 so the instruction still stands well. Just remember, keep practicing and be patient with yourself. Try slow, try fast but when you find that happy medium, get good at it.

[Black Wolf]

Hello Jason, this is the Head welding instructor at NAIT. Would you be interested in employment this winter session. Sorry J, couldn't resist.

SMARTA$$

[Ta2ood]

The gap we generally use is 1/8. Unfortunately we are not allowed to make the tack to the backside or I would def try that out. The explanation you gave was pretty much exactly what our instructor has said as well but I think the problem is feathering the tack/restart from old weld. What I was told was to Grind back about 3/8 keeping the back end of the tack/restart thick and making a downill slope back to the keyhole. I was also told that towards the keyhole the metal should be very thin so that when you arc the rod and start to oscillate back into position that the puddle should burn through the thin metal and continue to move along with the keyhole. I think the problem I'm having is that I have never seen an example of a tack properly feathered because whenever I seem to do it I get a puddle reformed but it never seems to penetrate through the thin part of the tack resulting in a small section that has no penetration (about 1/8"). Ive tried several things but I think I am grinding the tack/restart incorrectly . I def appreciate the info. I will take a few pictures of some of the things I have been working on to try to allow you to see what I am talking about. The open root is the only thing really giving me trouble. Everything else such as the hot pass, fill, and cap are pretty easy for me. Once I am able to get a root down and I'm able to run a clean pass almost everytime I can start on either 2G Pipe or my 6G pipe depending on hw my teacher thinks I will do. I was a rodburner for about 3 years prior to going to school for welding and we started school in late Aug. So far we have done a simple beadplate. Then we were moved to horizontal fillet. Next was overhead fillet followed by vertical up fillet. This root has been my first real challenge so it's kind of frustrating lol.

[JTMcC]

If you have a keyhole at the termination of your tack, there is no reason to have to grind at all. Tack starts are feathered for obvious reasons. but a keyhole (tack end) doesn't need it and in fact you're making it worse by grinding a keyhole.
My opinion.

JTMcC.

[Sberry]

I agree with that, a hole helps with a new start.

[BC_Hardwire]

3g Ta2ood

Hey! You said 1/8 gap & and 3/32 6010 rod! ? ! Correct me if im wrong! That is odd In my opinion try using a 1/8 rod with a 3/32-1/8 gap . . 1/8 land and run it around 77-80 amps, and if its fit up right you should almost have to push on the rod slightly, also listen for the distinct sound of penetration I personally dont like keyhole method. As for stop/starts I like to just clean the slag about 2" back then about 1" from keyhole run into the keyhole very slowly and pause 2 seconds approx when about half your rod is in keyhole, and carry on, no need to grind at all. Well thats my 2 cents I hope this helps and good luck, remember welding is all about trial and error we learn from our mistakes and dont be afraid to try new things , practice & patience

[Ta2ood]

Finally today I got a root to have full penetration with good tie-ins. Ya were using 3/32 with a 1/8" gap and land. That's how our instructor has us prep the things so I can't really argue with him. Also we have to grind not only our tacks but our starts and stops untill we learn to manipulate the puddle a bit better. But at least today I finally ran a **** root without having gaps all off in it. He said I need to work on 'consistency' tho. He said from looking at the bead that I didn't have a consistent rod depth and I need to work on a better travel speed to keep my ripples looking good. Other then that it had good penetration a little undercut on the toes but not too bad so I'm def headed on the right track. The thing that helped me most was changing the drag angle. Instead up pushing slightly up I put the rod at a very slight down angle when restarting and it allowed me to get a nice puddle and when i would push the rod through it tied in pretty well as soon as i got to the keyhole I would go back to a 90 and continue right up and it worked great so I'm happy. All i need to do now is get a better looking bead and I should be good. Thanks for all the comments left on here as well I'm pretty sure I'll be posting about 6g soon enough lol.

[BC_Hardwire]

Congrats Ta2ood!

Right on man! Good work I am in school right now 2, and was curious as to what country, & province/state you are schooling in? What level welding are you ? But anyway good work on the 3g! Would like to know how your next weld goes too. I am currently doing my 5g on 6" sch.40 1/8 Gap & Land. And 1/8 6010 root/hot. 7018 1/8 Cap. I can get a decent root & hot pass. But the cap is super tricky for me, the overhead part is where my cap fails visual everytime! Can anybody offer me any tips on that evil overhead weave ? We arnt allowed to grind at all so by the time my hot pass is in its almost flush with edge of pipe. I can do the vertical and flat portion of pipe great, the over head seems to get soo hot and start to droop. I gotta stop about 1 1/2" after rod light up. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thats about it for now

[Ta2ood]

I'm in Brevard county Florida.