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  • Kevin, maybe it wasn't you, but it came from the slimepit. I didn't save the copied text PM it was forwarded in. Now if you guys had any class, you'd allow open viewing of your forum for those you insult there to peruse without validating it's existence by registering there (there's an association some of us wish not to have with that place).

    Mac, duty cycle is a parameter of rated output. Rated output is quantified by duty cycle just like the air compressor motor scams used to claim obscene peak hp ratings to make the uninformed think they were buying a better product on numbers alone. Peak output without relation to duty cycle at such output is meaningless. I can measure several hundred amps output off a single capacitor discharge, but you could hardly spot weld with it - same thing here with welders. When you look at the dyn 200's peak output duty cycle, it's the same as the econotigs - but the amperage is different by 40A (which makes a difference, they're different power class machines). Having used a welder with a 20% duty cycle at it's peak power, I can tell you first hand it gets frustrating really fast when you can only weld 2 of every 10 minutes. The obvious solution to this problem is to buy a machine with a useful duty cycle in the output range you intend to use it in. That's what I was getting at with the reference to my invision. The output is marginal at 300A on single phase (20%), but I don't have any intention of welding anything with that machine that hot. Under 200A, where most of what I make ends up, it's more than adequate to fill my needs and not even approach a thermal barrier.

    It really seems to me that you intend on jumping down my throat after every post I make just to try and rattle me. It's not working.

    As for the journeyman fabricator distinction - I have no idea where I stand on that kind of scale. What makes a journeyman vs not? I do know that every boss I've ever worked for in a mechanical capacity was sad to see me go, and my parts that used stomp shears and such were all .001 tolerances where the materials used were extremely expensive. Much of what I worked on was prototypes in addition to my regular production type products (which had a high percentage of hand formed/processed components). I've also had the freedom to design solutions and tooling to improve efficiency of the group, and that was fun.
    Syncrowave 250DX
    Invison 354MP
    XR Control and 30A

    Airco MED20 feeder
    Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 81
    Smith O/A rig
    And more machinery than you can shake a 7018 rod at

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Fishy Jim View Post
      ...Mac, duty cycle is a parameter of rated output. Rated output is quantified by duty cycle just like the air compressor motor scams used to claim obscene peak hp ratings to make the uninformed think they were buying a better product on numbers alone. Peak output without relation to duty cycle at such output is meaningless. I can measure several hundred amps output off a single capacitor discharge, but you could hardly spot weld with it - same thing here with welders. When you look at the dyn 200's peak output duty cycle, it's the same as the econotigs - but the amperage is different by 40A (which makes a difference, they're different power class machines). Having used a welder with a 20% duty cycle at it's peak power, I can tell you first hand it gets frustrating really fast when you can only weld 2 of every 10 minutes. The obvious solution to this problem is to buy a machine with a useful duty cycle in the output range you intend to use it in. That's what I was getting at with the reference to my invision. The output is marginal at 300A on single phase (20%), but I don't have any intention of welding anything with that machine that hot. Under 200A, where most of what I make ends up, it's more than adequate to fill my needs and not even approach a thermal barrier.

      It really seems to me that you intend on jumping down my throat after every post I make just to try and rattle me. It's not working....
      Jim, I'm at a loss. Not one word of that had anything to do with correcting your use of rated outputs when we were discussing maximum outputs. I can only recall TWO times where you and I have ever disagreed like this. One recently where you said hot-to-neutral wasn't a sine wave and I proved it was. And now where you said maximum outputs differ on Dynasties depending on input phases. You've been proven wrong. I have no wish to argue at all. If I've "jumped down your throat" about every thread you participate in, I'd sure like to know about it.

      Everything you've said since is distracting fluff. I'm not arguing whether or not 20% duty cycles are productive. That's completely dependent on the job and completely irrelevant to this discussion. Yes, duty cycle is down at maximum output, no question. But it doesn't change maximum output on every inverter out there.

      Stop exaggerating and misremembering and stick to the facts. Quote me every single time you wish to address a point I've made, and then let's see if you really respond to anything.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Fishy Jim View Post
        Kevin, maybe it wasn't you, but it came from the slimepit. I didn't save the copied text PM it was forwarded in. Now if you guys had any class, you'd allow open viewing of your forum for those you insult there to peruse without validating it's existence by registering there (there's an association some of us wish not to have with that place).
        Right, it wasn't me. Contrary to what YOU might think, I don't take pleasure in ANYONE getting seriously hurt physically, even you.

        As for the SlagPit, We don't allow open viewing for a number of reasons. First and foremost is that WE intended the forum to be private from the get go. That is a choice that the entire core membership decided on, not just one or two persons. Second, everyone we have offered membership to has been vetted by some portion of the existing membership and they are invited because they have something of value to bring into the group. I can assure you with 100% certaintly that you, and Franz, will never be welcome there. So, since you already don't want to be there, or care what goes on, why in the world you even advocate for us opening it to the public?

        You're a real piece of work Jim. I think that is further exemplified by the vitriol that you expose not only in me, but in several qualified individuals in various fields of study that frequent this and other boards. Yeah, I know, you could care less. And so could we.
        Dynasty 350DX
        Dynasty 200DX TigRunner
        MM 350P
        MM Passport Plus
        Spectrum 375 Extreme
        08' Trailblazer 302

        Comment


        • Mac, here's my original post on the subject - unedited.

          Originally posted by Fishy Jim View Post
          The inverters max power is greatly reduced on single phase. Without ever looking at the machine, I think you could get a really good idea which input power was being used by simply turning up the heat as high as it goes and seeing which melted more metal. Same machine, same operator, same input voltage = vastly different output based on input being single or three phase.

          Now if you were intending to limit the test parameters to a given welding current within the range of both phase types, then I would agree with you.

          I don't have any 3ph tig experience, but my inverter mig supply is every bit as silky as the 3ph transformer migs I've run.
          What I said was that you could tell without looking at the input power, with somewhat certainty, what the machine was running on based on it's ability to melt a volume of metal. You, and others, perceived this as saying that the sole distinction of max power is amperage which I disagree with. Sure, I responded with the duty cycle based information, because I think to compare a machine based on anything but amperage and cycle time combined as a single parameter is foolish and misleading in it's own right (like the air compressor motors). While I didn't know that they eliminated the difference in the new dynasty (which has been on the market for what, 6 weeks now?), the case remains the same in much of the inverters out there (we could hope they'd change that, it would make a dyn 350 a lot more attractive to me).
          Syncrowave 250DX
          Invison 354MP
          XR Control and 30A

          Airco MED20 feeder
          Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 81
          Smith O/A rig
          And more machinery than you can shake a 7018 rod at

          Comment


          • Jim, if you took the word "max" out of your first statement in that post, I don't think I'd have a problem with what you said. I completely agree that the machine is less efficient.

            I also will side with you that IN MANY MACHINES, like my PowCon 300SM, you WILL have less maximum output on single-phase than three-phase. But then again, in single-phase, it operates only from 230V and on three-phase, it operates only from 460V. But that's just my machine.

            I feel your initial statement was too broad to be accurate and there was no malice in trying to point that out to you.

            Also, you quoted "rated outputs" when we were clearly talking about maximum outputs. That was black and white, and you tried to steer us through it without admitting you used the wrong data.

            Comment


            • The max output would encounter a duty cycle fault on single phase in most cases when attempting to melt the most metal. I see everything since as nit picking. You perceive my "most metal" as an acute thickness issue, not volume. Perhaps I was too vague given the scrutiny of this audience. I'll try not to be pithy in the future.
              Syncrowave 250DX
              Invison 354MP
              XR Control and 30A

              Airco MED20 feeder
              Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 81
              Smith O/A rig
              And more machinery than you can shake a 7018 rod at

              Comment


              • Duty cycles aside, the max outputs ARE THE SAME on these machines (Dynasties and some others, no doubt.) End of story. Did you check the volt-amp curves? I'm not mistaking amperage for power. It's in the graph, and it's not nearly as complicated as a sine wave. And it's past the section on "rated outputs" which is for marketing.

                20% is a far cry from saying it is an unusable output. The power is there and usable!

                Again, if you say "max output over time" you'd be correct. But that is not nit-picking, that is an extremely important detail that changes the whole game.

                Something pithy is condensed and terse, but has all the substance needed. Leaving out critical details does not make one pithy. It makes them wrong.
                Last edited by MAC702; 10-17-2008, 12:21 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by FusionKing View Post
                  But for further clarification I would not call an "expert" press brake guru a fabricator, nor do I feel a fabricator needs to be an expert press brake operator to be an "expert" fabricator
                  I guess that is where we can agree to see things differently.
                  In my eyes and expert fabricator can build anything from start to finish if provided with:
                  1) the correct raw materials
                  2) the proper tools/ equipment
                  3) the skills/ training to operate those tools/ equipment

                  I know some people that are awesome welders but they don't read prints very well or can't figure out solutions to problems that often creep up during fabrication.
                  I also know some people that simply go above and beyond when it comes time to design/ build things but you don't want them to finish weld it or... well lets just say it takes away from the beauty of the rest of the project.

                  Here is what dictionary.com has to say on the subject:

                  4 dictionary results for: fabricator
                  Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
                  fab·ri·cate /ˈfæbrɪˌkeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fab-ri-keyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
                  –verb (used with object), -cat·ed, -cat·ing.
                  1. to make by art or skill and labor; construct: The finest craftspeople fabricated this clock.
                  2. to make by assembling parts or sections.
                  3. to devise or invent (a legend, lie, etc.).
                  4. to fake; forge (a document, signature, etc.).
                  [Origin: 1400–50; late ME < L fabricātus made, ptp. of fabricāre.
                  at home:
                  2012 325 Trailblazer EFI with Excel power
                  2007 302 Trailblazer with the Robin SOLD
                  2008 Suitcase 12RC
                  Spoolmatic 30A
                  WC-24
                  2009 Dynasty 200DX
                  2000 XMT 304
                  2008 Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52
                  Sold:MM130XP
                  Sold:MM 251
                  Sold:CST 280

                  at work:
                  Invision 350MP
                  Dynasty 350
                  Millermatic 350P
                  Retired:Shopmaster 300 with a HF-251

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MAC702 View Post
                    Duty cycles aside, the max outputs ARE THE SAME on these machines (Dynasties and some others, no doubt.) End of story. Did you check the volt-amp curves? I'm not mistaking amperage for power. It's in the graph, and it's not nearly as complicated as a sine wave. And it's past the section on "rated outputs" which is for marketing.

                    20% is a far cry from saying it is an unusable output. The power is there and usable!

                    Again, if you say "max output over time" you'd be correct. But that is not nit-picking, that is an extremely important detail that changes the whole game.

                    Mac, I know the stated outputs are the same, but the practical implication of these differences is over time (you know, while working). I'm not confused by sine waves, there again, you and I have a very different opinion as to which is an important vs superficial aspect of the problem. I contend that duty cycle at a given output is as critical as the actual output rating in amperage.

                    If I'm welding something that needs the max output of the machine, I have a strong feeling (it is my belief, you can disagree with it) that duty cycle will become a very vital issue in the effectiveness of said machine to accomplish the task. 20% would not be a moot point in such a situation, as it has been in my personal experience with at least two machines with said 20% duty cycles.

                    If in fact the new dynasty's have no difference in duty cycle between the two input phase options, then there would be no way to discern which was being utilized as the arc characteristics should be identical due to the effective filtering of the switching power supply.
                    Syncrowave 250DX
                    Invison 354MP
                    XR Control and 30A

                    Airco MED20 feeder
                    Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 81
                    Smith O/A rig
                    And more machinery than you can shake a 7018 rod at

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Fishy Jim
                      The inverters max power is greatly reduced on single phase.
                      Originally posted by KB Fabrications View Post
                      This is at best misleading and in reality, completely untrue. For instance, the maximum output of my Dynasty 350DX is 350 amps whether it be single or three-phase power. ...
                      Jim, if your next post after this exchange had been like this:

                      Oops, you're right Kevin. I meant to say that many machines would show significantly less output over time, or even have what I would think to be an unusably low duty cycle, that it should be taken into account.
                      There would never have been a page 9 to this thread. You are used to arguing and quick to assume we WANT to argue with you. Just clarify what you meant and accept that your initial wording was wrong and misleading. Or just jump down the throat of anyone who tries to clarify it for you. Your choice.

                      Comment


                      • Like I said, I wasn't aware that they had bridged this gap. I was clearly wrong because the units I had been shopping (recently) when looking into buying my invision also have the output hit.

                        I still consider duty cycle just as important as the stated output figure though. Output amperage has to lie within an acceptable cycle time or the rated output isn't accurate in determining the machines ability to accomplish the task.
                        Syncrowave 250DX
                        Invison 354MP
                        XR Control and 30A

                        Airco MED20 feeder
                        Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 81
                        Smith O/A rig
                        And more machinery than you can shake a 7018 rod at

                        Comment


                        • I'm not sure that the older Dynasty 200 showed any difference on three phase either. I believe it was simply misread frequently... IIRC.

                          In fact I just read my older manual and it says they are the same duty cycle wise between single and 3 phase.
                          It is easily misread because they rate 115v as well. Page 13 is a pretty good chart IMO.
                          But the chart on page 15 does make it seem that better welding with more power would be possible at max amperage.

                          Jim I would like to say if you would use a Dynasty 200 for a length of time you would certainly want one for yourself and much of this discussion would be agreeing with each other. It isn't like a little MiG machine with a low duty cycle at all. The fact that you vary your amps when welding weighs heavily into this. As for stick it will run 1/8" 7018's nonstop forever.

                          www.facebook.com/outbackaluminumwelding
                          Miller Dynasty 700...OH YEA BABY!!
                          MM 350P...PULSE SPRAYIN' MONSTER
                          Miller Dynasty 280 with AC independent expansion card
                          Miller Dynasty 200 DX "Blue Lightning"

                          Miller Bobcat 225 NT (what I began my present Biz with!)
                          Miller 30-A Spoolgun
                          Miller WC-115-A
                          Miller Spectrum 300
                          Miller 225 Thunderbolt (my first machine bought new 1980)
                          Miller Digital Elite Titanium 9400

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by c wagner View Post
                            I guess that is where we can agree to see things differently.
                            In my eyes and expert fabricator can build anything from start to finish if provided with:
                            1) the correct raw materials
                            2) the proper tools/ equipment
                            3) the skills/ training to operate those tools/ equipment

                            I know some people that are awesome welders but they don't read prints very well or can't figure out solutions to problems that often creep up during fabrication.
                            I also know some people that simply go above and beyond when it comes time to design/ build things but you don't want them to finish weld it or... well lets just say it takes away from the beauty of the rest of the project.

                            Here is what dictionary.com has to say on the subject:

                            4 dictionary results for: fabricator
                            Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
                            fab·ri·cate /ˈfæbrɪˌkeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fab-ri-keyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
                            –verb (used with object), -cat·ed, -cat·ing.
                            1. to make by art or skill and labor; construct: The finest craftspeople fabricated this clock.
                            2. to make by assembling parts or sections.
                            3. to devise or invent (a legend, lie, etc.).
                            4. to fake; forge (a document, signature, etc.).
                            [Origin: 1400–50; late ME < L fabricātus made, ptp. of fabricāre.
                            I don't think we disagree at all....in fact I think you have done a much better job at expressing exactly how I feel!!!

                            www.facebook.com/outbackaluminumwelding
                            Miller Dynasty 700...OH YEA BABY!!
                            MM 350P...PULSE SPRAYIN' MONSTER
                            Miller Dynasty 280 with AC independent expansion card
                            Miller Dynasty 200 DX "Blue Lightning"

                            Miller Bobcat 225 NT (what I began my present Biz with!)
                            Miller 30-A Spoolgun
                            Miller WC-115-A
                            Miller Spectrum 300
                            Miller 225 Thunderbolt (my first machine bought new 1980)
                            Miller Digital Elite Titanium 9400

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by FusionKing View Post
                              I don't think we disagree at all....in fact I think you have done a much better job at expressing exactly how I feel!!!
                              Good deal! Then I guess we agree to ... well ... agree!
                              at home:
                              2012 325 Trailblazer EFI with Excel power
                              2007 302 Trailblazer with the Robin SOLD
                              2008 Suitcase 12RC
                              Spoolmatic 30A
                              WC-24
                              2009 Dynasty 200DX
                              2000 XMT 304
                              2008 Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52
                              Sold:MM130XP
                              Sold:MM 251
                              Sold:CST 280

                              at work:
                              Invision 350MP
                              Dynasty 350
                              Millermatic 350P
                              Retired:Shopmaster 300 with a HF-251

                              Comment


                              • FK, that duty cycle would kill me. Much of what I do with aluminum is heavy castings with a lot of material to disperse the heat. If I was doing intercoolers, then it might not be an issue. I deal with modifying plenums and there's thick flanges. Part of why I got the invision was to speed up the process with mig.
                                Syncrowave 250DX
                                Invison 354MP
                                XR Control and 30A

                                Airco MED20 feeder
                                Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 81
                                Smith O/A rig
                                And more machinery than you can shake a 7018 rod at

                                Comment

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