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350P Pulse Spraying Steel / Argon 75% - CO2 25%?

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  • 350P Pulse Spraying Steel / Argon 75% - CO2 25%?

    I got my 350p up and running today. The book on it recommends 90% argon 10% CO2 for pulse spraying steel. I only have 75% Argon 25% CO2 or 100% argon. I tried pulse spraying with the 75% 25% mix and it seemed to work really well but I suspect it even works better with the 90% / 10% mix. Has anyone used both mixes and noticed any difference? Is it worth it to go to the 90% / 10% mix? My LWS says that they only have rental bottles and they did not seem to think that the 90% / 10% mix was popular enough yet in most locations to be able to switch out the tanks like you do with the 75% / 25% mix. Another question I have is can you pulse spray steel with 100% argon and still have the strength? Thanks in advance!

    Thanks,
    Marc
    Millermatic 350P
    Dynasty 350DX
    Trailblazer 302
    Spectrum 2050
    Spectrum 375 Extreme

  • #2
    You sure you weren't in globular transfer? From what I remember, spray with C-25 is possible, but only at amperages above 600 or so. You would need C-15 at a minimum to get spray going with C-10 or even C-8 being the best all around. Straight Argon is a no way deal.

    Your LWS could fill you a couple of cyls if you own your bottles. Either that or look around for another lws that will carry it. Mine doesn't do C-10, but has C-8. Still works just as good. I was using C-25 on my TB302 and 12RC with .045 solid wire and it sucked to say the least in short circuit. Switched it all to C-8 and it was perfect. I have heard everyone with a MM350 say the same thing. Find the gas and make the switch. It will make the unit work much better.
    Don


    '06 Trailblazer 302
    '06 12RC feeder
    Super S-32P feeder

    HH210 & DP3035 spool gun
    Esab Multimaster 260
    Esab Heliarc 252 AC/DC

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    • #3
      Originally posted by DDA52 View Post
      You sure you weren't in globular transfer? .
      This is the first time I have ever tried to do spray transfer, so I'm not sure. The machine was making this cool hissing sound and I could see a little triangle of fire coming off the end of the wire that was about 1/4 of an inch tall. I could not see any globuls and it was penetrating fairly deep. I did notice when the machine was turned all the way up for 1/2" plate that it seemed to act better than when trurned down somewhere around 1/8" plate. At the lower setting I had to increase the arc length to get it to spray if that is indeed what I was doing. I'm already very impressed, so if it only gets better with C10 then that will be really cool.
      Millermatic 350P
      Dynasty 350DX
      Trailblazer 302
      Spectrum 2050
      Spectrum 375 Extreme

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      • #4
        Get your hands on a bottle of C-10 or C-8. C-25 is not for spray transfer.

        If you LWS can't get it for you, find one that can. That machine needs the right gas to perform properly. Have you looked at the Smith or Thermco gas mixers? With a mixer you can just dial in your C-25, C-10, or C-8.

        You may also consider trying a 98%Ar/2%O2 mix for spray. This has proven to be a good gas for spray transfer, particularly in lower powered machines. (Not that I put the 350P in the lower power category)
        Syncrowave 250 DX Tigrunner
        Dynasty 200 DX
        Miller XMT 304 w/714D Feeder & Optima Control
        Miller MM 251 w/Q300 & 30A SG
        Hobart HH187
        Dialarc 250 AC/DC
        Hypertherm PM 600 & 1250
        Wilton 7"x12" bandsaw
        PC Dry Cut Saw, Dewalt Chop Saw
        Milwaukee 8" Metal Cut Saw, Milwaukee Portaband.
        Thermco and Smith (2) Gas Mixers
        More grinders than hands

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        • #5
          Originally posted by SundownIII View Post
          Get your hands on a bottle of C-10 or C-8. C-25 is not for spray transfer.

          If you LWS can't get it for you, find one that can. That machine needs the right gas to perform properly. Have you looked at the Smith or Thermco gas mixers? With a mixer you can just dial in your C-25, C-10, or C-8.

          You may also consider trying a 98%Ar/2%O2 mix for spray. This has proven to be a good gas for spray transfer, particularly in lower powered machines. (Not that I put the 350P in the lower power category)
          That was the first thought that hit my mind. I never cared to even try C-25 on my machine because pulse covers about anything I will EVER use it for on steel I believe on the low side and on the higher I'm spraying then anyhow I went and traded for a bottle of C-10.
          I use big bottles tho. If you can't get little ones anywhere then ante up a big bottle of spray mix 'cause you have too much invested to stop now!!
          Man yer gonna LOVE it....it is SWEEEEEEEEET!!!

          www.facebook.com/outbackaluminumwelding
          Miller Dynasty 700...OH YEA BABY!!
          MM 350P...PULSE SPRAYIN' MONSTER
          Miller Dynasty 280 with AC independent expansion card
          Miller Dynasty 200 DX "Blue Lightning"

          Miller Bobcat 225 NT (what I began my present Biz with!)
          Miller 30-A Spoolgun
          Miller WC-115-A
          Miller Spectrum 300
          Miller 225 Thunderbolt (my first machine bought new 1980)
          Miller Digital Elite Titanium 9400

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          • #6
            That was the first thought that hit my mind. I never cared to even try C-25 on my machine because pulse covers about anything I will EVER use it for on steel I believe on the low side and on the higher I'm spraying then anyhow I went and traded for a bottle of C-10.
            I use big bottles tho. If you can't get little ones anywhere then ante up a big bottle of spray mix 'cause you have too much invested to stop now!!
            Man yer gonna LOVE it....it is SWEEEEEEEEET!!!


            SHOWOFF!!!
            I'm not late...
            I'm just on Hawaiian Time

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            • #7
              When I 1st got mine I used the rest of my 25/75. It worked ok. I got the 90/10 and I did notice a difference. That's about all I use in the shop now is the 350P in pulse mode unless I'm on the road. I would say to get one. You'll like it.
              Mike
              MD Welding & Fabricating L.L.C.
              [email protected]

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              • #8
                My welder is a PowerMig 300 but I had the same issue. It was my first attempt at using .045 on 3/8 plate using GMAW-P with 75/25. I then read that pulse was not recommended for anything more than 18% CO2. A trip to the LWS for a bottle of 90/8/2 and I was suprised at the difference. And based on what I've read and seen here the gas is "all purpose" so I don't have to switch as I move from different modes.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by arvidj View Post
                  My welder is a PowerMig 300 but I had the same issue. It was my first attempt at using .045 on 3/8 plate using GMAW-P with 75/25. I then read that pulse was not recommended for anything more than 18% CO2. A trip to the LWS for a bottle of 90/8/2 and I was suprised at the difference. And based on what I've read and seen here the gas is "all purpose" so I don't have to switch as I move from different modes.
                  Ya, Lauren at Toll got me to Demo the powermig with the same gas and that thing ran so smooth I almost got a hard on! I tried it on everything from 22ga. to 3/8" running through the diferrent transfer methods and I was definetly imprest.

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                  • #10
                    MD WELDING wrote:...When I 1st got mine I used the rest of my 25/75. It worked ok....
                    MIKE!!! You were supposed to try 75/25!!! THAT'S why it wasn't so good!!!
                    (sorry, couldn't resist)
                    I'm not late...
                    I'm just on Hawaiian Time

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                    • #11
                      I have bottles of C-25 and pure Argon, side-by-side on my cart. The flowmeter for the Argon is a dual model so I can route one meter to my XMT for GTAW. The other side of the meter feeds into a "Y" with individual shutoff controls. One side of the "Y" leads to my Spoolmatic and the other side to a "T" fitting coupled to the line from the flowmeter on the C-25 cylinder. The "T" effectively blends Argon with C-25 and pipes it to my GMAW wirefeeder when that's what I want.

                      I know the mystique surrounding mixing gasses, but I just coupled the two with the "T" and I'm able to create a 90-10 or 92-8 or whatever I want for spray GMAW. I figure that if I want (for instance) 25 cfh of 92-8, I should use 17 cfh of Ar and 8 cfh of C-25. It's actually easy to figure out. The 17 cfh of Argon from the one cylinder is self-explanatory. If you think of every 8 cfh of C-25 as being 6 cfh of Argon and 2 cfh of CO2, then you can see that to get the needed Argon for 92-8, those 17 cfh added to the 6 cfh (of the 8 cfh from the C-25) of Argon equals 23 cfh. The remaining 2 cfh of CO2 from the C-25 makes up the 8% needed for the total 25 cfh. 23-2 is the same ratio as 92-8.

                      I hope that wasn't gobbledegook to you. I suppose a formula would have been more to-the-point, but I hope you get it anyway. All I know is it works for me and I get true spray arc.
                      Miller XMT-350 CC/CV
                      Miller S-22A wirefeeder
                      Bernard 400A "Q" gun
                      Miller 30-A Spoolmatic w/WC-24
                      CK 210 & WP-18 GTAW torches
                      Hypertherm Powermax 30
                      O/A Rig, Enco 4x6 bandsaw, etc.

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                      • #12
                        How about showing up pictures of your gauges??? I'd like to see if my LWS has them so I can rig up like yours!!!
                        I'm not late...
                        I'm just on Hawaiian Time

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Bert....don't you think yer overdue for a sig??
                          We can't remember what machine everybody has yuh know

                          www.facebook.com/outbackaluminumwelding
                          Miller Dynasty 700...OH YEA BABY!!
                          MM 350P...PULSE SPRAYIN' MONSTER
                          Miller Dynasty 280 with AC independent expansion card
                          Miller Dynasty 200 DX "Blue Lightning"

                          Miller Bobcat 225 NT (what I began my present Biz with!)
                          Miller 30-A Spoolgun
                          Miller WC-115-A
                          Miller Spectrum 300
                          Miller 225 Thunderbolt (my first machine bought new 1980)
                          Miller Digital Elite Titanium 9400

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Dmaxer,

                            Not trying to burst your bubble, but, you're way off base thinking you're getting anything close to a 90/10, 98/02, etc, etc. by using a y valve.

                            If blending gasses accurately was that easy (cu ft to cu ft), companies such as Smith and Thermco would not be selling $1,500 and $3,500 "gas mixers".

                            I won't get into a lengthy discussion about how mixers work, but I will say that cu. ft./hr is only one of the factors. The Smith for instance, bases their proportional mixes on the square root of the density of the gases being mixed, not just on cu. ft./hr.

                            I did a little writeup on the difference between the Smith and Thermco mixers on the Hobart board. Don't know how to link, but you can go to their board and do a search for "gas mixers".

                            I don't dispute the fact that you can use a simple Y to "mix gas". What I'm saying is that you really have no way of determining a 98/02 or a 90/10 ratio using this method. Also you have not even mentioned the use of check valves to prevent backflow of gasses and the resulting contamination of the mix.

                            Thermco has several published papers available describing the advantages of on site blending. Go to their website and check it out.

                            If all you want to do is add "a little" CO2 to your Argon a Y valve (with check valves) would be OK. If you want to dial in a 98/02 mix or a 90/10 mix, you should be looking at a true mixer.

                            BTW I have both the Thermco and Smith mixers. When I dial in a 90/10 ratio of Ar/CO2 I'm pretty sure (not positive) that's what I'm getting. Your system won't even get you close.
                            Syncrowave 250 DX Tigrunner
                            Dynasty 200 DX
                            Miller XMT 304 w/714D Feeder & Optima Control
                            Miller MM 251 w/Q300 & 30A SG
                            Hobart HH187
                            Dialarc 250 AC/DC
                            Hypertherm PM 600 & 1250
                            Wilton 7"x12" bandsaw
                            PC Dry Cut Saw, Dewalt Chop Saw
                            Milwaukee 8" Metal Cut Saw, Milwaukee Portaband.
                            Thermco and Smith (2) Gas Mixers
                            More grinders than hands

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                            • #15
                              Are both regulators working at the same pressure? If not the mix will not be to the % that a CFM calc would show.
                              Weekend wannab racer with some welders.

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