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Interesting dilemma (one for the sparkies who hang out here)

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  • #31
    The phase converter will be coming with me when I go. So that really just leaves some normal 4 pole outlets scattered around the shop with no power. It's not a safety issue at all. And if someone wanted to make them live, the one I will be supplying power at is within 2 feet of the main panel. It would be very easy to revert it to another purpose.

    I ended up working too late again last night and the wife didn't wake me when she had said she would (much nicer alarm clock) so I never got to call the inspector. I will be up early tomorrow, and there's a good chance I'll just get my rough in inspection done tomorrow while I'm at it. I have all but a couple lighting circuits installed and running as of about 20 mins ago.

    I'm also glad to be done wrestling with the 4-3.
    Syncrowave 250DX
    Invison 354MP
    XR Control and 30A

    Airco MED20 feeder
    Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 81
    Smith O/A rig
    And more machinery than you can shake a 7018 rod at

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    • #32
      Fishy Jim, Good luck with the inspector. I wish you well.

      Comment


      • #33
        I don't really need luck. Nothing thats installed is against any codes at this point. I have all the 10-3nm run, but none of them has an outlet installed yet.
        Syncrowave 250DX
        Invison 354MP
        XR Control and 30A

        Airco MED20 feeder
        Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 81
        Smith O/A rig
        And more machinery than you can shake a 7018 rod at

        Comment


        • #34
          Please raise your hand if you are an electrician a.k.a "sparkies".

          I read all of the complaining about bad welds from shadetree weldors on this site and then when an electrical question is asked all of the shadetree electricians come out of the woodwork. Now how does that work?

          Jim, you state you want to be honest in your first post but you don't want to spend the money on the correct receptacles or disconnect. You know what you need to buy, sac up and buy it.

          As far as the inspector, if he was any good at what he was doing, he would be doing it, not inspecting it.

          Sounds like your mind was made up before you posted your question.

          Tim

          Comment


          • #35
            My wifes cousin is an electrician, and he's been my "go-to" guy on the stuff I wasn't sure of.

            I installed the meter box, power mast, main panel, all the wiring, did temp service to the house due to the relocation of the mast - replaced that with relocated internal wiring, and have done another sub panel in the house.

            I am not an "electrician." I have been working with electricity for roughly 27 years though. My father was a radar repairman in the Navy in Nam. I started with simple circuits and soldering when I was very young. I've got extensive experience with 12v systems, and have quite a bit of electromechanical and pneumatic design background as well.

            Basically, I know what's safe and dangerous, and I know what's become code because there are people out there who don't... The voltage, ampacity, and number of poles of a connector are the only specs I actually care about other than consistency of the standard within "my world." I have 3 prong outlets because that's what my grinders, drills, stereo, etc come with...

            I am the only one enforcing the standard of what 3ph equipment is connected with in my shop, so if I were the one writing the code, I would go for the cheaper of the two options because some esoteric connector is not needed to handle the load required by my equipment. I am also not running the higher voltage that 3ph is often run at - so I don't have any other reason to be using a more expensive plug other than keeping things standardized.

            So people have blown up machines because they plugged them into 3ph lines and they obviously weren't three phase machines... This scenario is irrelevant to my shop. My phase converter will need to be started and stopped by me. I am the only one who will be working in it, and I am the only one who will be designating what connectors are used for what equipment. I could use european standard sockets everywhere if I wanted to and it still wouldn't be "unsafe." It would be utterly useless for me, but that doesn't make it dangerous.

            I was actually unsure of what the three phase offerings were when I posted this thread. After posting it, I did some more looking and found them. 15-50's it will be if I "must." I just hope I don't have to. Ease of sourcing parts has always been a big design consideration for me.
            Syncrowave 250DX
            Invison 354MP
            XR Control and 30A

            Airco MED20 feeder
            Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 81
            Smith O/A rig
            And more machinery than you can shake a 7018 rod at

            Comment


            • #36
              Jim,

              The comment about electricians was not at you. I was frustrated that you asked for and answer from an electrician(IN THE TITLE), but everyone that posted was not.

              I am an electrician, and when a welding question is asked, I don't start flapping my jaws just to hear myself talk.

              You obviously know what the correct connector (per code) is for your application, I didn't doubt that. You obviously also have already met the inspector, sounds like you are going to do what you think you can get away with. Honnest??? You inserted the word into your post, not me.

              Like Steve said. "Good luck"

              Have a good evening.

              Tim

              I will throw this at you. Just so you don't think I am an total a-hole. I have 2- 3 pole, 30 A disconnects sitting here that you can have. Just cover shipping from 46706.

              Comment


              • #37
                I am far from an electrician, but it seems to me if you use the wrong plug for 3phase, then the former ground lug could now be a hot lug. If this is true, I wouldn'g want to hold on to the equipment that was plugged in.
                Just a thought, like I said, Me no electrician. The electricity I mess with is supposed to make sparks!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Tim, I appreciate the kind offer, but I don't want disconnects.

                  As for reversing the ground - that's entirely not the way I would wire them.

                  With a traditional 4 prong 220v connection, you have two hots, a neutral (which is also hot if you are between it and the neutral bus) and a ground which is there to prevent the former situation from happening should there be a problem with the neutral bus wiring.

                  See, all three leads other than the ground are actually charged when the connector is being used.

                  With how I would wire them, if I end up using them, I would make the neutral the third leg. Still charged, but charged differently.

                  I know how I could cheat the inspection, but I will not do that. If it comes down to it, I'll fork out what's needed for the 15 series outlets and plugs.

                  Now as for things that aren't all that safe and Are "code" - they just changed the spacing requirement for wiring from the edge of studs down to 1". Same thing for gas lines... Scary! No striker plates required. Sheetrockers could start perforating gas lines in the not so distant future. But hey, it's legal.
                  Syncrowave 250DX
                  Invison 354MP
                  XR Control and 30A

                  Airco MED20 feeder
                  Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 81
                  Smith O/A rig
                  And more machinery than you can shake a 7018 rod at

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Fishy Jim View Post
                    T
                    Now as for things that aren't all that safe and Are "code" - they just changed the spacing requirement for wiring from the edge of studs down to 1". Same thing for gas lines... Scary! No striker plates required. Sheetrockers could start perforating gas lines in the not so distant future. But hey, it's legal.

                    I haven't heard about that one. I try to stay away from the resy work at all cost though. I hate wiring in my own house. LOL

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I take back my good luck wishes since you don't need them. No sense cluttering up the place. I was just wishing you well in your endeavor, not being sarcastic but truly wish you well. Wiring up a place is a daunting affair with lots of things to consider like where and how many, what size, and the like. Face it, a lot of work on your part. I am not an electrician. Never claimed to be licensed. However all my work will pass code and has passed code. I have even found code violations that have passed the local inspector. Most typical is grounding to the cold water copper pipe from the service panel, not jumpering around the water meter with the copper pipe tied to the incoming plastic! Now my ground is dependent on the mineral content of the water which is also covered in the NEC. Get it hooked up and burn wire(or rod)

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Personally I think its a great idea to use single phase outlets for 3 phase power. think of the advantages. When you kill yourself from your own (ockiness, your wife will probably meet someone new. Then when her new beau goes into your shop and tries to plug in a new dryer to check it out he will likley kill himself too!
                        Sorry, couldn't resist! When I wired my shop I had made a compromised decision regarding some wiring. I wanted to use too small a wire, as I had it already. My father in law came over and asked me what the he!! I was thinking, and told me to get in the truck and go get the right wire. I am sure he mumbled the whole time I was gone too!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Well, as long as the new guy knows that you need to turn the switch on the funky grey box in the paint booth before the dryer outlets get power...

                          Sorry for reading things wrong Steve. I had some issues with my father today and it has skewed my world view for the time being. I won't get into it, but lets just say I didn't make him too happy and it ended up pissing me off in the process.



                          The whole wiring task was a major chore. I built everything in the shop short of the slab (21 yards is not a "one man" pour) and the trusses (they have to be engineered). I've had some help moving sheathing to the roof (46 sheets), and I had help raising the walls, but other than that, I have built the entire structure myself.

                          I'm just about ready to put in the low voltage stuff (cat5, cable, speaker wires), finish up the gas line for the heater, and then it will be ready to seal up.
                          Syncrowave 250DX
                          Invison 354MP
                          XR Control and 30A

                          Airco MED20 feeder
                          Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 81
                          Smith O/A rig
                          And more machinery than you can shake a 7018 rod at

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by N20Silverado View Post
                            ...Jim, you state you want to be honest in your first post but you don't want to spend the money on the correct receptacles or disconnect. You know what you need to buy, sac up and buy it....
                            It was a good question. There are a lot of things that can be done against the NEC that are still perfectly safe, and even more than can be done and be perfectly safe when they stay within a controlled environment.

                            Asking a real electrician, and Jim knows there are a few of us here, is the best way to find out which you can get away with. This is one of them, if he remains in control of the environment at all times, which is probably not a big deal in this situation.

                            What boggles the discussion is the attitudes that came into the thread from other issues.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I called the inspector this morning, and he doesn't want to come out till I have the lighting circuits buttoned up. I guess that means I have to build my paint booth ceiling first.

                              As for his take on the receptacles, since it isn't a commercial location, he's only concerned that they be of the right ampacity for the wiring within.

                              He pointed me to Art. 455 in the 2005 NEC. Anyone able to look that up for me? I won't be able to get to the library today.


                              As for the other receptacles, he said those can't be rated for more than the wiring or the overload device - so my using a 6-50 on my air compressor isn't allowed by code when I have the breaker smaller than the 10ga wiring can handle for it. That seems stupid to me.
                              Syncrowave 250DX
                              Invison 354MP
                              XR Control and 30A

                              Airco MED20 feeder
                              Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 81
                              Smith O/A rig
                              And more machinery than you can shake a 7018 rod at

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Well, I ended up buying a whole mess of 30A 3ph twist lock plugs and sockets surplus today. Sockets were 3 bucks, and plugs were 5.

                                For under 50 bucks for the whole shop and a lot of plugs on hand for future machines - I'll live with the fact they stick out off the wall.

                                Thanks for everyone's help.


                                Also, in calling one of the rotary phase converter outfits, they said none of the commercially available converters are actually UL listed - but that they just use UL listed parts. So how do I get around that? I can't even buy a converter that meets that stipulation of my inspector. He specifically said I couldn't have an idler motor wired up. You need three phase to run a VFD that's over 3hp too, otherwise you need something like 170% of the load rating to run them off single.
                                Syncrowave 250DX
                                Invison 354MP
                                XR Control and 30A

                                Airco MED20 feeder
                                Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 81
                                Smith O/A rig
                                And more machinery than you can shake a 7018 rod at

                                Comment

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