Why are you welding it with that process!

[Aerometalworker]

certification

For the record,
The FAA (or Canadian counter-part )doesnt rely on the AWS for any procedures or processes, they develop their own. This is why you see avaition folks and non-avaition people arguing over 4130 quite a bit. The FAA has its engineering proven methods that it sticks to for repair and construction. BUT......other methods are used providing they pass engineering testing, field testing and a whole heap of paperwork for approval, especially on aircraft that hold a type certificate.

Since few people here ( im guessing ) work on certified aircraft, ill also say that there is no PQR or any other AWS code associated with certified aircraft repair since the AWS is not a regulatory body in this area. There is only AC 43.13-1b ( I believe thats the current one ). Its a very good technical book to have in your library if you ever have to deal with thin materials and anything of that nature.

-Aaronk

[Pile Buck]

Well I see you scamps have been busy!

I personally have no idea how things are done in Canada, but always willing to learn. Maybe when one of you Canadians has time you can enlighten us here south of the border.

I surely don’t know the %, but on the whole, especially in construction the majority of the weldors never see the paper work of this “business”. Being as I’ve worked both sides of the fence, this is how I’ve seen it play out.

For the average weldor on the job site,
Foreman assigns weldor where to weld, and how to weld it. At best the project-engineer, project-superintendent, or trade-superintendent has explained, or maybe even showed said foreman the weld / prequalified joint welding procedure. Odds are very low that the foreman ever passes on the written procedure; he will undoubtedly phrase it as “my way or the highway”! Or it’s the same thing that every body has done from day one. Which is “industry standard”. I would think the average structural Iron Workers knows exactly what to do when assigned a column splice. Just like the average pile buck knows what to do when assigned an HP-splice.

1st attachment is a blank WPS, taken right out of the back of an AWS D1.1 codebook
2nd attachment is a blank prequalified joint welding procedure.
3rd attachment is a filled out PQR, (don’t seem to have any blanks)
4th attachment is a prequalified joint welding procedure I’ve done in the past. I had to do this quite often, not a big deal at all. Especially if you have access to a few books and a copying machine. Read through the project spec book for all the details of the material to be welded, fill in blanks on this form. Read the manufacture suggestions for the filler material to be used, fill in blanks on form. Find a really good joint detail, either in an AWS codebook, any welding book, or even an old set of blue prints. Copy that detail; scotch tape it in that little box lower right hand corner. Run this form in the copying machine! Make sure you have filled in every blank, or it will be sent right back to you! If you have a project engineer it’s best to have him / her submit this form to the engineer of records approval. If the engineer of record has not met your project engineer, suggest to him / her to paper clip one of their business cards to this form, especially if they have the letters “P E” behind their name. Goes a lot further that way!

[BillC]

oh yea eh, lets get a show of hand's here, how many canadian's or people outside of the united states know what 'PQR's are, or use them on a regular basis

or mabye how many american's know what w47.1 or w47.2 standard is, or bill c45

a 'pqr' is an aws thing, why on earth would i know or use 'pqr's made up by the american welding society, key word being american, we have differant standard boards in canada, as a result welding is done to CSA and CWB standards using CSA and CWB weld procedures.

Sorry, I didn't mean to turn this into a border conflict. Canadian, American, or European, the codes contain many of the same concepts. All I was trying to do in my previous post was elaborate on the concept of a PQR and how it (or the equivalent) is used to support a written welding procedure. You probably don't qualify new procedures on a regular basis, but if you are performing welding to a code then you have welding procedures.

I think that working welders should understand that procedures are based on testing. From Cary's response I guess I was wrong in assuming that welders are provided with procedures when they are qualifying or performing code work. It sounds like everybody is either told what to do or just "knows" what to do from experience.

CSA prescribes WPSs and WPDSs. Is there a CSA equivalent to a PQR? Is it the WPDS? How do you qualify welding procedures for CSA/CWB code work per your structural steel welding code W59?

Regards,

[Fat-Fab.com]

i wasnt trying to start a **** fest, what i was trying to get at is your thread would have been much more effective had you actually informed of the aws procedure for welding 4130 instead of trying to make other board members look stupid, ive been on many forums over the years and thats a gaurnteed **** fest starter

no hard feelings

and for the record, chromoly and chrome moly are both common abreviations for 4130, 4130 is chromium-molybdenum steel, so your both wrong

No problems here
I did not see it at the time that any one person or a group of people would take it so personal. I just let my mouth lead the way and as usual it filled up with foot. lol
I see welding in this light: on any given day MY weld will be holding up a beam that can weigh hundreds of pounds per foot with people working /living under that beam. It has to be right. I don't want to live with the thought that my weld failed and some kid, mother, dad was hurt.
I welded trailer hitches to semi truck trailers so they could haul dubbel trailers. I hated when the boss foreman not owner would come out and try to cut corners I always was thinking of my mother riding behind that trailer. It had to be right. I wanted proof that the engenering was sound that I had enough weld of a big enough size. thus the recipe for the weld in AWS terms WPS welding procedure spesifacation. If you or any body would like mor info on WPS PQR or most anything reguarding "code welding I will do my best to find the correct answers for you I enjoy doing it as it re-enforces my ablities to find the info as well teaches me things along the way. All of this was with out sp check hold me to no errors.


TJ

[phaxtris]

OWNED !


lol

[phaxtris]

i wasnt trying to start a **** fest, what i was trying to get at is your thread would have been much more effective had you actually informed of the aws procedure for welding 4130 instead of trying to make other board members look stupid, ive been on many forums over the years and thats a gaurnteed **** fest starter

and yes we do have many books filled with welding procedures, under w47.1 and w47.2 and several other codes, very large binders, i try to stay away and do my job as best i know how, i leave it up to the qa guys to inform me of any new or incorrect procedures

no hard feelings

and for the record, chromoly and chrome moly are both common abreviations for 4130, 4130 is chromium-molybdenum steel, so your both wrong

[Fat-Fab.com]

yea and what you guys are saying is if someone doesnt know what a pqr is, a fancy american term for welding procedure, you dont know or work in industry, give me a break, you think because americans use the term PQR everyone does, i work in an iso and cwb cert company, we have no book filled with PQR's, plent of books filled with welding procedures and welding codes

i have yet to see another canadian reply saying that they use these famous PQR's you guys talk about, mabye because we dont call them the same thing, and you guys being so full of it cant see even begin to understand why someone from another country has never heard of a 'PQR', and because of that they dont have a clue

No that is not what I am saying I am saying that you have in your shop some thing that is the equal to thr PQR I don't know what it because of the same reason you don't know about PQR


This whole thing started because I wanted to point out the so many peoplw wrer telling this guy that they had "the way" to weld what he wanted welded. and that is so far from reality. I'll bet he could use any of the procedrues he was told about and ride his bike for a long time with no issues.

The AWS may be the leader in welding standards it is not the the final answer. I m not a member because they want to suck too much money for what they offer. I do not agree with all things AWS. As you know their are a thousand ways to skin a cat wich one is the best/ My way of course lol...


TJ

[phaxtris]

know what 'PQR's are, or use them on a regular basis

Originally Posted by BillC
No offense, but if you don't know what a PQR is then you probably aren't in the welding business.
I have to agree, have never read a code book on welding, really cant recall ever seeing one and even when I was working in the trades all that didn't mean much to me, someone pointed to the test booth and I did it. I leave it to the book types. Could have cared less what code it was under and like fab said, we just kind of generally know the procedure which is the way about 95% of the worlds welding work is done. All the qualification has its place but on the job I certainly don't think about it. Like a lot of things, they get done differently out there than they are written. Ask Carl about electrode storage, ask me about all those safety rules you can read then spend some time on a gettin ******** job. Ok, erecktion job then.

yea and what you guys are saying is if someone doesnt know what a pqr is, a fancy american term for welding procedure, you dont know or work in industry, give me a break, you think because americans use the term PQR everyone does, i work in an iso and cwb cert company, we have no book filled with PQR's, plent of books filled with welding procedures and welding codes

i have yet to see another canadian reply saying that they use these famous PQR's you guys talk about, mabye because we dont call them the same thing, and you guys being so full of it cant see even begin to understand why someone from another country has never heard of a 'PQR', and because of that they dont have a clue

[Fat-Fab.com]

Ok you asked for it. I have been riding bikes with Chromoly frames for over 20 years so I know what I'm talking about. I think you need some glasses because I never called it cromoly, take a second look. Also aint is not a word.

ain't
One entry found for ain't.


Main Entry: ain't
Pronunciation: 'Ant
Etymology: contraction of are not
1 : am not : are not : is not
2 : have not : has not
3 : do not : does not : did not -- used in some varieties of Black English
usage Although widely disapproved as nonstandard and more common in the habitual speech of the less educated, ain't in senses 1 and 2 is flourishing in American English. It is used in both speech and writing to catch attention and to gain emphasis <the wackiness of movies, once so deliciously amusing, ain't funny anymore -- Richard Schickel> <I am telling you--there ain't going to be any blackmail -- R. M. Nixon>. It is used especially in journalistic prose as part of a consistently informal style <the creative process ain't easy -- Mike Royko>. This informal ain't is commonly distinguished from habitual ain't by its frequent occurrence in fixed constructions and phrases <well--class it ain't -- Cleveland Amory> <for money? say it ain't so, Jimmy! -- Andy Rooney> <you ain't seen nothing yet> <that ain't hay> <two out of three ain't bad> <if it ain't broke, don't fix it>. In fiction ain't is used for purposes of characterization; in familiar correspondence it tends to be the mark of a warm personal friendship. It is also used for metrical reasons in popular songs <Ain't She Sweet> <It Ain't Necessarily So>. Our evidence shows British use to be much the same as American.

You are right you called it

" One Arm Steve
Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Motor City
Posts: 8

Its called Chromoly."

But that is just like the aint thing. a "nonstandard" term whitch is what I was raving about in the first place.

I stand corrected. thanks for pointing out my error

TJ

[Fat-Fab.com]

oh yea eh, lets get a show of hand's here, how many canadian's or people outside of the united states know what 'PQR's are, or use them on a regular basis

or mabye how many american's know what w47.1 or w47.2 standard is, or bill c45

a 'pqr' is an aws thing, why on earth would i know or use 'pqr's made up by the american welding society, key word being american, we have differant standard boards in canada, as a result welding is done to CSA and CWB standards using CSA and CWB weld procedures

and i have yet to see your 'PQR' or more commonly know name 'weld procedure' for 4130, do you yourself know the 'proper' procedure

Good grief Charlie Brown: did you not read what BillC wrote or what I wrote. Do you read? Can you not infer anything besides a personal attack?

So now you are saying I offended you and all of Canada because I talked about AWS as apposed to the CWB. Get a life. I am in the USA why would I care about the Canadian standards. As the AWS serves as the world leader in welding standardization and I am in the USA and that my cliental requires me to work to the AWS standard and I am a former AWS CWI this is what I speak to.
The CWB has very similar requirements to the AWS the terms are different because you folks never got out from under the thumb of the British Crown. What about the people not from either country. Good thing they have the ISO.
As to your foolish question that’s shows definitively that you do not read or understand what you do read and I quote “ and i have yet to see your 'PQR' or more commonly know name 'weld procedure' for 4130, do you yourself know the 'proper' procedure” .



Your use of the word “proper”, there is no one proper way to weld anything. If you in your wonderful world come up with an idea as to welding 4130 or anything else and you can prove it will function as prescribed for its application then you can have the “proper” way to weld.


Until then Pull your head out I think you are suffering from a lacking of oxygen.

form a1 AWS PQR as follows.

Form A-1
Pass
No. Electrode Size
Welding Current Travel Speed
(or Weld Time for
Arc Spot Welds) Melting Rate
Wire
Feed
Amperes Volts Speed
JOINTS (Table 4.1)
Type of Welded Joint(s) ________________________
___________________________________________
Backing Yes No
Backing Material Type _________________________
Groove Welded From:
one side____________ both sides ____________
BASE METAL (1.2)
Material specification type and grade:
Sheet steel _________ to ___________________
Thickness __________________________________
Support Steel
Thickness __________________________________
Base Metal Preparation________________________
POSITIONS (Table 1.2)
Position of Groove ____________________________
Position of Fillet ______________________________
Progression _________________________________
GAS (1.4.6.2)
Shielding Gas ________ Flow Rate _____________
Percent Mixture_______________________________
FLUX (1.4.5.2)
Filler Metal (Table 1.1):
Specification _________________________________
Classification ________________________________
COATING(S)
Type _______________________________________
Thickness ___________________________________
SAMPLE FORM FOR WELDING PROCEDURE QUALIFICATION TEST RECORD (PQR)
Company Name __________________________________________________ ________________________________
Procedure Qualification Test Record No. ____________________________________ Date ___________________
Welding Procedure Specification No._______________________ Rev __________ Date ___________________
Welding Process(es) ___________________________________ Type ____________________________________
(Automatic, manual, etc.)
Mode of Transfer for GMAW______________________________________________ ___________________________
(Short circuiting, spray, etc.)
end


TJ

[Sberry]

know what 'PQR's are, or use them on a regular basis

Originally Posted by BillC
No offense, but if you don't know what a PQR is then you probably aren't in the welding business.
I have to agree, have never read a code book on welding, really cant recall ever seeing one and even when I was working in the trades all that didn't mean much to me, someone pointed to the test booth and I did it. I leave it to the book types. Could have cared less what code it was under and like fab said, we just kind of generally know the procedure which is the way about 95% of the worlds welding work is done. All the qualification has its place but on the job I certainly don't think about it. Like a lot of things, they get done differently out there than they are written. Ask Carl about electrode storage, ask me about all those safety rules you can read then spend some time on a gettin ******** job. Ok, erecktion job then.

[phaxtris]

No offense, but if you don't know what a PQR is then you probably aren't in the welding business.

oh yea eh, lets get a show of hand's here, how many canadian's or people outside of the united states know what 'PQR's are, or use them on a regular basis

or mabye how many american's know what w47.1 or w47.2 standard is, or bill c45

a 'pqr' is an aws thing, why on earth would i know or use 'pqr's made up by the american welding society, key word being american, we have differant standard boards in canada, as a result welding is done to CSA and CWB standards using CSA and CWB weld procedures

and i have yet to see your 'PQR' or more commonly know name 'weld procedure' for 4130, do you yourself know the 'proper' procedure

[BillC]

I think that TJ's point is that the proof of the pudding is in the eating... You can use MIG, TIG, O/A, JB weld, or bubble gum as long as your welds consistently meet engineering requirements...

No offense, but if you don't know what a PQR is then you probably aren't in the welding business. The commonly used welding codes require that all welding be performed in accordance with a written welding procedure specification (WPS). A WPS is written instructions for a welder defining how to make a good weld. Some welds are so basic and proven that they can be analagous to a recipe in a cookbook: follow the recipe and your welds will meet performance requirements.

Other welds, depending on the materials and processes, are more challenging and require that you provide your own recipe to achieve performance requirements. When there is no pre-qualified "recipe", you have to prove that you can make good welds per your own recipe, recording the testing on a PQR, or Procedure Qualification Record. Once the recipe is proven and tested, the WPS for the welder can be written based on the PQR.

I didn't read that TJ is saying that his way is the best... I think that he is saying that there are many ways to weld 4130 and how you "feel" about a particular process is irrelevant if that process is capable of producing welds with acceptable performance.

As far as I know, oxy-acetylene is still the preferred method for joining 4130 tubing for airframes. Why not GTAW??? Because O/A welding meets engineering requirements...

Regards,

[Fat-Fab.com]

Geeze, must be a canuck thing eh

just a rhetorical question but how much 4130 does a welder in alaska get to weld?

Edit: oh wait, you probably dont know what rhetorical means

You might be suprised at the number of light aircraft in Alaska.
I think Anchorage lays claim to the largest # of TO's and Landings at a seaplane port, Lake Hood.
I don't weld as much here as I did in California all in all I have welded more al and stainless than 4130 and you are right I ignore rhetorical questions as they are mostly sarcastic (sp) but for you and the sake of ending the pounding I am getting I answered you.


Now is that the end or do more of you feel the need to tell me that I did not consider you feelings enough


SORRY!

[phaxtris]

You would not understand it. sorry

Geeze, must be a canuck thing eh

just a rhetorical question but how much 4130 does a welder in alaska get to weld?

Edit: oh wait, you probably dont know what rhetorical means