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Inexperienced, Video Welding on street Honda's AWD Differential and subframe

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  • FusionKing
    replied
    My entire universe is centered around peoples bad welds.

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  • ryanjones2150
    replied
    A few years ago I drove to the north part of Florida to buy a small enclosed trailer to carry a very expensive engine and some parts I was picking up the next day in Georgia from Jon Kaase. Everything got home fine, but I crawled under that trailer to investigate why it was sitting crooked and discovered the most disgusting structural welds I've ever seen. These welds looked like a second grader had done them.

    I called that company, which is one of the larger manufacturers of enclosed trailers down that way, and they told me flat out, "that's how we weld them, we've never had one come apart, if you don't like it then bring it back." Well I live 750 miles away so I just pushed it into the shop and handled it.

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  • ArcZone
    replied
    I know a couple guys that welded at trailer shops who could barely weld to begin with who swear up and down that when missing welds were found in paint that 9 times out of 10 they would get caulked and sprayed.
    Im kinda on the fence when it comes to the diy backyard type stuff, but if it comes out of a shop or was hired out I expect to see at least some sort craftsmanship or general give a dam. It makes us all look bad when you don’t

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  • Noel
    replied
    http://www.jwes.or.jp/en/

    Everybody has somebody that governs something. Pay the money, weld the coupons ,pass the test and paper results. It's a food chain.

    More to the subject of this post. The man who tries shows courage, the man who fails learns humility, and one who worries to much gets nothing done.

    What seems to be lost in conversation is 70,000 pounds per square inch. What's that worth in argument?
    No discussion about tensile strength, ductility, toughness, yield strength, elongation, hardness...that kind of thing?

    I'm with the crowd that figures, a little good goes along way, buddy could focus on doing more good, and it seems he is doing enough good to get by?

    My conversation pictures. Well...Understanding those setting does make a difference. Not all welds end up holding. But the good ones, they usually stretch before they break.


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  • ryanjones2150
    replied
    I still want to know how to become a certified Honda chassis weldor.

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  • Lewis Hein
    replied
    I maintain that ignorance is really no obstacle, because making welds that are good enough for 99% of our purposes just isn't that hard. Unless you're building a large building, a gas pipeline, or something else that falls under the remaining 1%. Then you actually have to know how to weld.

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  • FusionKing
    replied
    My perspective hasn't changed much.
    The guy is ignorant. I've known guys like him all my life doing the very same type of stuff. Only difference is he put out a video.
    I'm still laying the blame on cheap welding machines also.
    We all have our pet peeves.
    Guess we'll have to wait for his next video on how he does his other mods.
    You have my blessing to go on all you want. I just know that my crappy welding on all my mini bikes and go-karts and eventually cars led me to where I am now. No one died. Pretty lucky I guess.

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  • ryanjones2150
    replied
    Thank goodness I'm not in Germany.

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  • ScienceofSpeed
    replied
    Fast forward to 12:18 to get to the point. This is the kit SP Tuning has and is using, he still has much more to do: Has to cut and move the subframe/lower control arm mounts to get this to work, otherwise the CV axles will not fit and the lower control arms will be floating and not be sandwiched in. As well as cut the shock tower and move it and re weld it back in to the thin sheet metal chassis. This is not something simple we are talking about. He did not even measure his pinion angles for the differential to the hubs before welding in the differential mounts.

    Not to mention he just made another video of him cutting his driveshafts and him MIG welding these thin wall driveshafts together and then grinding down the MIG welds to look good, i guess. This is sketchy to say the least.

    And I don't expect you to do anything.... I just wanted to post this because I wanted to see other welders opinions on this. Is that okay?

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  • ScienceofSpeed
    replied
    Fusion King:

    Thank you for the welcome. I am sorry if I am being a littIe dramatic, i just do not see this being safe to be around on the road when done by such a amateur welder and still learning. I just want a friendly debate on this, as this is something very new and is not talked about much on the internet. Nor even the legality of it has been discussed and I am curious myself, because i couldn't even pass my inspection with my Honda after I installed and built a custom turbocharger kit on mine. I don't think you quite understand the profoundness of these modifications, he still has to move the lower control arm mounts back some what to make this Honda AWD modification work. I am a big Honda fan, owned many Honda's I've turbocharged and modified myself for over 5 years and have researched these Civic, CRX, and Integra awd modifications quite extensively. This video is just showing him cut the chassis and weld in the differential mount. There will be more welding to the sub frame, control arm mounts, and shock tower, going on to make this work, and I just recommend him to take it to a professional for the rest to keep this from being a disaster on the road and from hurting people and causing accidents, which is exactly where it will fail. He has to cut the shock tower and weld it in again and move the lower control arm mounts before this is going to be working. This is no tiny feat we are talking about here.

    Not many people have completed this project successfully. It is something that should be left to a somewhat professional welder and professional fabricator. And honestly you didn't even get to see these welds up close in the video, he himself said they were ugly. (Pause the first video i attached at 8:37 or 8:38 and just look at how porous those welds look) Is this not something that someone would be worried about, being a mount to hold the heavy differential on and take the torque of the engine? I mean, in Germany any modification at all done to your car is almost completely illegal, they can only do what the government approves; because they understand the seriousness of these death machines and how quickly they can kill and/or injure severely. People are so nonchalant about driving cars on the road, but did you know that every 16minutes a car collision happens which occurs in a death! It is #10 in the world for leading causes of death. I told him at the beginning there is no problem with this if he is just making this a drag car that will be trailer-ed to and from events and never driven on the street. The Extra risk does not justify the means. If he kills or injures a person just trying to make his car go faster.... just how would that be justifiable? I think you are quite naive to these Honda AWD modifications my friend. This is something that is quite new to the Honda scene and hasn't been done successfully but only on a few Honda's.

    And yes i have had instances of this SP Tuning guy giving some incorrect procedure in his past "How to" tube videos for certain Honda repairs and I, as well as others, have needed to correct him since people are using them as guidance to fix their own car. Because he calls his videos "How To Videos" people believe this is the complete right way to fix it, yet he's giving them some critical misinformation. I like his youtube channel and only since this recently, when i gave him constructive criticism on this AWD welding video, has he been getting sarcastic towards my comments. I was trying to be nice and help him a bit, I don't like being mean or hurtful but he obviously needs some welding practice and would have been smarter to have done it before doing this difficult of a project.

    Again I am sorry if I am sounding over worried but the whole build has been welded by this SP guy and he literally just started his welding practice during this very build, so like a few days of experience & practice. There is a time when he should get humble and say this is something left for a professional welder to finish all the welds before testing it on the street. I wouldn't even feel comfortable doing this with all my college and experience. If everybody and anybody can start picking up a cheap welder and start welding on their car's chassis and sub-frame components, without any schooling at all, won't some welders be out of a job? I went to welding school for 2 years and hearing that it doesn't really matter is quite shocking to hear. If automotive welding doesn't really need any amount of experience or schooling then where is the schooling absolutely needed for?

    I also just seen this recent video of him cutting his driveshaft right in the middle, Mig welding it together, and then grinding all the welds back off... and no balancing done. Couldn't he have just taken it to a driveshaft shop. I would say this doesn't seem very safe either. If this build ever gets out on the road it is gonna be one big can of worms IMO!
    video of driveshaft welding: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dYFF5MAXOk
    Last edited by ScienceofSpeed; 01-04-2019, 10:24 PM.

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  • FusionKing
    replied
    ScienceofSpeed….we get your point. welcome to the forum.
    But your missing a few things here. The differential on that car isn't load bearing. In other words, it don't have the weight of the car on it.
    You would be more justified to start demanding that muffler shops become "certified" because the leaking bad welds intoxicate children and pets left in a car with the engine running.
    We have a lot of "certified" guys here. We also have a lot of guys here that know a LOT about cars and other equipment.
    You keep referring to your past encounters with this person. I for one tend to raise an eyebrow that your first post on these forums is to get all of us on the bandwagon to crucify someone over something that you ae really not all that educated on yourself. Do you like to build cars and things like that? Because I feel you are both exaggerating and blowing this out of proportion.
    That's what this forum is about. (welding and motorsports)
    I looked at the work. it's not pretty. Will it hold? Because of how it is installed, more than likely. It's sheet metal. Welded perfectly it can only do so much.
    It would certainly pass inspection in my state. I would say he will "test" it more than enough to know if it's gonna hold up. And he will improve his welding skills now as well.
    I for one am not gonna get all worked up over some guy on Utube modifying his car somewhat poorly and showing us how he did it.
    Just exactly what would you expect us to do about it anyways? Call the Sherriff in his town and have him charged with illegally modifying his automobile?

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  • ryanjones2150
    replied
    How does one become certified to weld on a Honda chassis?

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  • ScienceofSpeed
    replied
    Originally posted by ryanjones2150 View Post
    I agree with FK. Another example....There are tons of trailers running around with way worse hazards. Not saying it's right either. I've never seen something like this fly out from under a car and cause a wreck, but about a month ago I did see a trailer tire come flying off in front of me and caused the car behind me to wreck.

    Your position is valid, but I think your concern is over estimated. That's my take at least.
    Thank you for thinking that what i am saying is Valid, it's peoples lives on the road that matter before modifications to make their street car faster. The Risks do not justify the Means! But the problem is, this is something that should not be condoned AT ALL. You say it is not right, yet you sound like you don't see the possibility of failure, EVER. OEM car parts fail all the time, this is something much more complex and under designed than even those original manufacturer equipment. We cannot be nonchalant about this sort of thing. There are to many people dieing on the road as it is, *a person dies in a car accident every 16 minutes.* People want to be safe as possible on the road, and they have the Right TO! To live and survive in this world you have to use the roadways and I for one want to be very safe. I drive a motorcycle currently and i come close enough to dieing as it is without having to worry about haphazardly welded on drivetrain parts welds failing and coming off, taking me out on the road, or taking other motorists out. Only for the means of being able to be the faster street racer. The risks DO NOT justify the means.

    I think if this is gonna start becoming a trend(younger people welding on parts to their chassis that don't belong), we need to educate and recommend people to get these important modifications done by a professional/certified welder or at least take a course at their community college before doing something this important. I have seen this kinda stuff happening more and more, especially with consumer welders being even cheaper and more convenient to own. And i just think it is something that needs careful consideration. If you don't agree that is fine, but the alarming number of car accidents should have you thinking more critically. We don't need anymore.

    *Sources: https://www.schmidtkramer.com/faqs/h...nts-occur.html

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  • ScienceofSpeed
    replied
    Originally posted by Grizzly1944 View Post
    These folks are a danger to themselves and others. But then because they're on YouTube they think they are the WFFA on this subject. (WFFA = Worlds Foremost Fricking Authority) There's a huge difference between ignorance and stupidity. Stupidity being terminal and almost impossible to fix. I did a better job of welding the very first time I handled a MIG rig. Too bad nothing will happen to them unless the rear end falls out and bounces through someones front windshield. They're too stupid to understand what the word safety means, let alone liability.
    Thankyou for understanding my concern of safety on the road. Lets not forget this guy is a notorious Street Racer, meaning he is most likely going to be speeding with this when he gets this backyard project done, I hope he doesn't. I have had one family member killed in a car accident, and multiple other relatives injured in car accidents and where they needed hospitalization. My worry is that overestimated because people die everyday in car collisions and having this kinda EXTRA RISK DOES NOT justify the MEANS! Again this is in the pursuit of a faster street car, i mean AM i crazy?

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  • ScienceofSpeed
    replied
    But don't you think that these kind of jobs should be left to a certified welder? He could have easily just paid a welder to weld in his rear sub frame and differential mounts.Instead of trying to show off that "he could do it" when he has hardly any experience welding at all; the guy doesn't even own a welder. I mean it's not some truck bed, it's his rear drivetrain, something that takes the weight of the car and the torque from the engine and its being welded in by a complete newbie; he has had hardly any welding experience. I would compare this to a someone starting their welding on a small scale Nuclear reactor. I don't know about some of you but i wouldn't want to be on the same road as him when he is speeding down the highway (he street races these vehicles) and bearing most of the load/weight of his car, In other words his rear differential, axles, and rear wheels and tires and at the same time taking all the vibration of the roadway and the vibration of the engine turning those rear tires. I have family around him and I don't want them being near this street racer who thinks he can cut on his chassis and weld in something that doesn't belong on this car. Look up about inspection, this is illegal to some extent, he can't have this heavy modification inspected without being failed. I told him early on that if he just used it as a drag car and trailer it to events that would be fine, but to race that out on the street is very irresponsible. Who the **** knows when those dirty welds are gonna break from the vibration and torque of the engine. This just IS NOT SAFE for the street. I have 2 years welding education from college, and over 10 years experience welding at home and i wouldn't even feel comfortable welding these heavy modifications on my chassis without having a certified welder doing it. It's about safety, and nothing else. Would you ride in his car with him with these crazy modifications that he welded in himself. I'm telling you he atleast needs to get this inspected by someone professional before he takes it out on the street where he could be endangering peoples lives. By the way car accidents easily make the top 5 list for highest amount of fatalities, why should we chance this at all???

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