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Best welding rod (tig) for welding 4130 chromoly tubing

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  • speed racer
    replied
    filler wire

    Hello all,
    The filler I was sold is stamped R60 on the flats. I was told it would work for mild steel or moly just fine. Any input on this?
    Thanks in advance

    Leave a comment:


  • Dynasty2OO
    replied
    I just found this, pretty interesting.

    http://www.netwelding.com/Welding%204130.htm

    Leave a comment:


  • Dynasty2OO
    replied
    I was actually talking about this with my boss at the hot rod shop and he pulled out this spec sheet that showed what filler rod should be used on 4130 depending on the governing association and it was different from Indy, Nascar, NHRA, etc. Some used er70s, others D2, and other 308. I dont remember which were for what, but I guess it varies.

    Leave a comment:


  • Old Sporty
    replied
    Not to detract from some of the other answers, but I would listen to "AskAndy". He deals with this subject on a daily basis with the Nascar Sprint Cup builders and I feel like his knowledge is right on concerning this.

    Leave a comment:


  • weldor180sd
    replied
    Originally posted by Aerometalworker View Post
    Funny, notice where that got them? Ever see the failed welds on the Force teams cars? Hmmmm.
    -Aaron
    The main cause of the failures is due to the fact that McKinney used 4130N tubing that was heat treated to make it stronger by an outside source before welding for the main frame rails, (it was not heat treated by the steel mill that produced the tubing because of minimum footage of the steel mill to make a prodution run was way too much $$$$). Now the big teams like JFR, DSR, etc make their own chassis in-house instead getting them from McKinney, Hadman, etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • KC1
    replied
    Tig wire

    I use ER70s-2 on all my chassis I build Pro-Mod & Top Sportsman Chassis. This conforms to the S.F.I.spec and certification for 25.1E 6.00 flat and slower. Hope this helps.
    Attached Files

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  • Aerometalworker
    replied
    Originally posted by scsfabrication View Post
    I got an 1989 super pro s10 that is 910 horse and pulls the wheels 3 feet in the air for 80 feet out for the last 4 years. I used the ER80, purged the moly tubing and also used a trailing sheild, then wrapped the joint in insulation and so good so far. Alot of work but well worth the fun.
    Naw its not a lot of work, it shows you were thinking! The purging might have been overkill, and the filler deffinately was....well depending on joint design. The insulation was a good effort, if you got it on soon enough it may have helped the material auto-temper upon cooling.

    Here is a Pic for you guys, how about Fenn's shop turning out some winning chassis while working for chassis research? Hmmmm notice the welding method of choice I think they had a bit more then 910 horse as well J/k
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Aerometalworker; 01-25-2009, 05:57 PM.

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  • scsfabrication
    replied
    I got an 1989 super pro s10 that is 910 horse and pulls the wheels 3 feet in the air for 80 feet out for the last 4 years. I used the ER80, purged the moly tubing and also used a trailing sheild, then wrapped the joint in insulation and so good so far. Alot of work but well worth the fun.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aerometalworker
    replied
    Originally posted by trstek View Post
    ok... some pictures of the frame and welds...

    So, where will you be running?

    Who will be piloting this here craft? New to it, coming from Kart' s, whats the story.

    A little bench racing is in order after a question like one that was asked.
    Yeah interested here too! And what was your final choice for materials?

    Leave a comment:


  • trstek
    replied
    ok... some pictures of the frame and welds...

    So, where will you be running?

    Who will be piloting this here craft? New to it, coming from Kart' s, whats the story.

    A little bench racing is in order after a question like one that was asked.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aerometalworker
    replied
    Originally posted by FusionKing View Post
    what about using oxweld #32 cms or #7 for this Aaron? on O/A. What are they made of?

    Also even the filler mfgs (Harris) say er80 is for use with post heat treat only. Never mind what they think.

    BTW...I'm not sure I would trust MY life with the [email protected]$$ practices Mckinney did
    IIRC he was even using the wrong material to begin with.
    Somebody ought to post a link to that thread.
    FK,
    Oxweld 7 is basicly a drawn iron wire, and was the standard for most weldments in 4130 up to about 1/8" thick. Thicker then that Oxweld 1 was usually suggested and is a "low alloy" filler. 32CMS was heat treatable as was used in areas that would recieve a heat treat above the normalized condition and contained chromium, moly, etc. etc. Of course there was no hard and fast rule as it has a lot to do with the joint configuration and application. In WW2 military aircraft design prints you see mostly oxweld 7, with oxweld 1 being used in some heavy critical areas like wing attach points and 32cms on heat treated gear assemblies. It should be noted that the tensile strengths of the pure filler is not what the weldment tensile strength ends up being due to intermixing of the alloys. the AMS did a bunch of testing years back on this for an aerospace firm, I dont have the numbers in from of me right this second but they ended up being much much higher then the filler tensile strength.
    Now back to Tig, in a letter I have from one of the aircraft companies from 1964, it explains why they chose oxweld 65 ( now called er70s-2 ). It was due to the ductility and elongation of the material. They WANTED a softer material since the area of reinforcement ( weld bead ) more then makes up for the slightly lower strength compared to the base 4130, and the end result was a more ductile weldment. Unfortunately not much has been done in recent years as far as company sponsored engineering help as 4130 tubing is now mostly reserved for engine mounts and such. However the materials have not changed, so I tend to follow the trends from when the material was in the prime of its use in a critical application. I know im a bit of a "nerd" about this, you should see my library on this subject!

    On a personal note, the old 32cms ( now replaced with RG-65 ) makes some beautiful welds if you ever section them or have to machine on the material!
    -Aaron

    Leave a comment:


  • FusionKing
    replied
    what about using oxweld #32 cms or #7 for this Aaron? on O/A. What are they made of?

    Also even the filler mfgs (Harris) say er80 is for use with post heat treat only. Never mind what they think.

    BTW...I'm not sure I would trust MY life with the [email protected]$$ practices Mckinney did
    IIRC he was even using the wrong material to begin with.
    Somebody ought to post a link to that thread.
    Last edited by FusionKing; 01-22-2009, 06:54 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aerometalworker
    replied
    Originally posted by trstek View Post
    I've got a closet full of them, first Grandpa's old clothes, then some of my pop's.

    In years past we used them often on exhaust pipes with gas heat.

    They actually work pretty good.

    Back on subject, inspect, inspect and then clean and inspect. Think it is great the project is moving forward, no one teaches maintenance any more...

    Hey Aaron, thought that would get a rise out of you
    Ha Ha yeah, I have seen the old hangers, they were made from some pretty soft iron to be able to be formed like they were, maybe it was just a simple low carbon drwn iron wire not too different from RG-45. For fun I should dig one up and have it scanned. The torch is pretty forgiving of filler, in fact the less alloying elements, the more fluid it seems to weld, kind of the opposite of electric welding. You know back in the late 1960's , most of the aircraft companies were using Oxweld 1 and Oxweld 65 for their tig welding on 4130?

    Leave a comment:


  • trstek
    replied
    I've got a closet full of them, first Grandpa's old clothes, then some of my pop's.

    In years past we used them often on exhaust pipes with gas heat.

    They actually work pretty good.

    Back on subject, inspect, inspect and then clean and inspect. Think it is great the project is moving forward, no one teaches maintenance any more...

    Hey Aaron, thought that would get a rise out of you

    Leave a comment:


  • Aerometalworker
    replied
    Originally posted by trstek View Post
    You can use coat hangers...

    The important point here is that on a race vehicle, the design is light weight, close to the limit of strength / failure. Some, but not a lot of "extra" safety margin.

    Sooooo, what that means is, you race, you inspect, you race, you inspect, repeat until the frame is wore out...

    Where folks get into trouble is they under design, never inspect, or forget that life cycle deal.

    If you want to be competative, weight is an issue, having a vehicle break up under you or worse yet, not protect you when you really need it like when you tangle with a wall or 3 or 4 other vehicles.

    Just kiddding about the coat hangers by the way.

    Coat hangers??? where the heck are you finding metal ones now-days??! We always called them RG-Black. However if given the choice between a coat hanger from 1940, and filler metal from china.......I would trust the coat hanger to at least be consistent!

    Leave a comment:

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